Model 3 Projected 0-60 Times

[McRat]

The gap between EV capabilities vs ICE is (slowing) shrinking, which is good for EV adoption rate. However, certain myopic comments touting "performance" advantages over ICE, in threads like these, are cringe worthy. It would be helpful to the EV industry's progress in surpassing ICE capability, if more EV customers had a little more sophisticated expectations of what a performance car should provide. That is, a concern with overall performance and driving enjoyment rather than a focus on 0-60 times. Tesla and other EV makers purporting to produce a performance-oriented car need to work on major engineering problems like weight reduction, road feel (steering feedback), handling and endurance (thermal management).

The propulsion system in an EV gives a superior driving experience in urban environments, or short course tracking like AutoX. ie - It's more fun and relaxing to have instant progressive power at your right foot. No hunting between gears, no lag, no warmup, no drama/noise.

Cruising down the freeway? You could have hamsters in wheels powering a car or a big electric fan on the roof. It doesn't matter in steady state. New ICE cars are very quiet and smooth as are EVs.

Tracking? It's a very small market. Only a fraction of track oriented cars are ever driven with gusto. So it really doesn't matter to most buyers other than bragging rights about what other people have pushed the car to.

Weight and chassis are a whole different game and need to be discussed separately. Nobody knows how well Tesla will do with the M3 chassis or weight. I can guarantee it will have a low CG.

I didn't get my Model 3 wish. I was looking for a 2+2 coupe, but it makes more sense to target sedan customers.

 

[R.S]

On the topic of all out performance:

I don't think Tesla will be thinking about track times too much, when it comes to the Model 3. To keep continuous power high enough, you'd need a big radiator and that cuts into aerodynamics. And since driving range is still king and I don't think Tesla will be bothered with building two different fascias, radiators and cooling systems, for the "easy to manufacture" 3, the chance of it becoming a track monster is rather slim. It will be quick and nice to drive, but there will be no 100% performance oriented Model 3.

The high end version will probably not even handle any better than the base version. Again, why have two different suspensions on the easy to manufacture Model 3? And since the base version can't be too harsh, or tail-happy, handling will be more compromised, than it has to be. The usual benefits of an EV will definitely help here, but there will be space for tons of improvement.

With the next Roadster we might see a truly track focused Tesla, but probably not before then. Maybe some day they will have their own sports devision, that will take care of their performance oriented cars. But, since Tesla only has a limited amount of engineers, it just takes too much time, energy and money away from more important upcoming vehicles.

And even then, they will surely do the Model S first, before they tackle the mass market Model 3.

And that's why I think someone with a background in car tuning should team up with someone who knows a thing or two about electric drivetrains to make the Model 3 the first aftermarket tunable EV. Coolant pump, suspension kit, radiator, copper rotor, higher rated inverter, add all of that and the Model 3 might be a hell of a track car.

 

[zenmaster]

Really? What is the P100D?

It doesn't compete with performance oriented cars, nor was it intended to do so. Drag racing is a "muscle car" thing.

All performance cars are meant to be driven hard and have from showroom to track capability. In that category, I'd include the Porsche, Audi RS, BMW M, MB AMG, etc. Long tradition there with comparable driving characteristics for driving enthusiasts. It's about how a purpose built car can handle the road and provide a whole other level of feedback. Nothing Tesla currently produces offers that. And like I said, they are not in that business for a good reason.

 

[zenmaster]

I find it unlikely Tesla will release one that can't beat a M3 in acceleration.

People that buy BMW M3 simply don't buy them for 0-60 times. It's not a metric that will hook in that market. There would be significant penetration into that market, however, if Tesla could produce a car with a comparable level of performance. Most of the potential cross shoppers would then be left to consider things like styling and cost.

 

[stopcrazypp]

People that buy BMW M3 simply don't buy them for 0-60 times. It's not a metric that will hook in that market. There would be significant penetration into that market, however, if Tesla could produce a car with a comparable level of performance. Most of the potential cross shoppers would then be left to consider things like styling and cost.

The magazines certainly care though. The 0-60 times of the Model S was made a big deal by the media and most performance comparisons come with a drag race. I see no reason why Tesla would not aim for the same for the Model 3. With electric motors, it's a relatively easy metric to hit.

The fact of the matter is 0-60 (and related acceleration ones) is the most accessible performance metric usable in public streets. Drag racing is also the most popular form of racing in the US. So people still care about this.

 

[insaneoctane]

... With electric motors, it's a relatively easy metric to hit.

The fact of the matter is 0-60 (and related acceleration ones) is the most accessible performance metric usable in public streets. Drag racing is also the most popular form of racing in the US. So people still care about this.

The other point is that not only is it a relatively easy metric to hit, but the downside to hitting it is a significant differentiator for EV vs ICE. For ICE to get low 0-60 times always comes with a (relatively) large and hungry engine that requires feeding even when you are not exercising them, particularly when compared to a smaller engine. You know...
ICE="Do I get the V8 and pay for it at the pump, or get the 4 cylinder and have no fun?"
EV="Have your cake and eat it too!"

 

[zenmaster]

The magazines certainly care though. The 0-60 times of the Model S was made a big deal by the media and most performance comparisons come with a drag race. I see no reason why Tesla would not aim for the same for the Model 3. With electric motors, it's a relatively easy metric to hit.

The fact of the matter is 0-60 (and related acceleration ones) is the most accessible performance metric usable in public streets. Drag racing is also the most popular form of racing in the US. So people still care about this.

People do care about it for sure, no question. It is a good power burst feature and popular due to that American muscle car culture. My point was a more holistic embodiment of car performance from those example models I provided has its own, separate market. The average shopper in that market simply can't get something comparable in a Tesla or any EV. Even if Tesla wanted to enter that market, the tech just isn't there yet. It will be a number of years before an EV can compete with a similarly priced performance ICE car. But if you were Tesla would you even go there? Of course not at this stage. Look at how many BMW 3 series are sold compared to BMW M3's. Why do that when you need a bread and butter product?

 

[rcarpen22]

This may have been asked and answered, but if so, I can't find it. Is the published 5.6 second 0-60 time for the base model or the larger battery? Also, I tend to agree that overall performance of EVs still has some catching up to do, but there are some really nice advantages. The torque curve, obviously, but also the weight distribution. If the next roadster (or other EV sports car) is lighter than a Model 3 and has a much more robust battery cooling system for sustained performance, it could start to tread on traditional sports car performance. I absolutely love my S, but I wouldn't want to track it. Even on the street, if I know I'm going to do some really spirited driving, I'll take the wife's BMW. That's not a knock on my car. That's just not what it's made for.

 

[zenmaster]

This may have been asked and answered, but if so, I can't find it. Is the published 5.6 second 0-60 time for the base model or the larger battery?

Good question. The same "leak" ignored the base model S 0-60 time so strange comparison table.

 

[rcarpen22]

If the larger battery gets you sub 5 second 0-60, then it might be fun to pick up a rear drive 75 model. I had a rear drive Model S 85 as a loaner and it was fun to hit the accelerator with the traction control off. They slide around pretty well for such big cars. I really wanted to wait for the P model, but I'd hate to lose the full tax incentive.

 

[zenmaster]

If the next roadster (or other EV sports car) is lighter than a Model 3 and has a much more robust battery cooling system for sustained performance, it could start to tread on traditional sports car performance.

Yes more effective cooling and/or more efficient electrical system.

 

[zenmaster]

If the larger battery gets you sub 5 second 0-60, then it might be fun to pick up a rear drive 75 model. I had a rear drive Model S 85 as a loaner and it was fun to hit the accelerator with the traction control off. They slide around pretty well for such big cars. I really wanted to wait for the P model, but I'd hate to lose the full tax incentive.

Would be nice if Tesla could offer a post-purchase options and feature service center upgrade, available after the tax incentive ends. Switch out the base motors, invertors, suspension bits for the "P" components. Shame that the early adopters can't get the car they want.

 

[Siciliano]

I've read from various sources on the interwebs that Tesla's 0-60 times are indeed NOT from a standstill, rather, from a 1+ foot roll. It's disheartening, but I think most car manufacturers do this, so essentially it's only fair if Tesla does it as well, to level the playing field...

 

[McRat]

I've read from various sources on the interwebs that Tesla's 0-60 times are indeed NOT from a standstill, rather, from a 1+ foot roll. It's disheartening, but I think most car manufacturers do this, so essentially it's only fair if Tesla does it as well, to level the playing field...

Normally 0 to 60 mph or 0 to 100 km/h runs are done using accelerometers which means movement starts the timer. Example from MFR website: "Based on initial vehicle movement" (GM).

The rollout comes from doing your testing at a dragstrip. Some things to note about dragstrip testing. You can roll up to 18" sometimes before the timer starts. The track has VHT on it which increases the grip, plus the surface is basically rubber, not pavement. There is an area to heat your tires if chose to.

Add about 0.2-0.3 seconds to the time to get accelerator readings from a dragstrip test.

 

[JeffK]

I've read from various sources on the interwebs that Tesla's 0-60 times are indeed NOT from a standstill, rather, from a 1+ foot roll. It's disheartening, but I think most car manufacturers do this, so essentially it's only fair if Tesla does it as well, to level the playing field...

The times are reported by motortrend who is a 3rd party to Tesla
They describe their process here:
Testing, Testing - The Motor Trend Way - Motor Trend

Car and Driver article on rollout:
The Importance of 'Rollout' - Feature

 

[McRat]

The times are reported by motortrend who is a 3rd party to Tesla
They describe their process here:
Testing, Testing - The Motor Trend Way - Motor Trend

Car and Driver article on rollout:
The Importance of 'Rollout' - Feature

If you REALLY desired more accurate results using dragstrip beams, write DEEP on passenger side of the windshield. This uses a single beam. You roll forward until the both pre-stage bulbs are lit, then creep until the top light goes out. This removes most of the rollout and variation since it operates on a single beam.

 

[stopcrazypp]

I've read from various sources on the interwebs that Tesla's 0-60 times are indeed NOT from a standstill, rather, from a 1+ foot roll. It's disheartening, but I think most car manufacturers do this, so essentially it's only fair if Tesla does it as well, to level the playing field...

As JeffK points out, it's mostly a magazine standard. Using rollout keeps the numbers consistent with the 1/4 mile (which is typically done at a drag strip).

Normally 0 to 60 mph or 0 to 100 km/h runs are done using accelerometers which means movement starts the timer. Example from MFR website: "Based on initial vehicle movement" (GM).

The rollout comes from doing your testing at a dragstrip. Some things to note about dragstrip testing. You can roll up to 18" sometimes before the timer starts. The track has VHT on it which increases the grip, plus the surface is basically rubber, not pavement. There is an area to heat your tires if chose to.

Add about 0.2-0.3 seconds to the time to get accelerator readings from a dragstrip test.

Initial Vehicle Movement (IVM) to 60mph is actually defined as 1 foot rollout to 60 mph (same as your dragstrip example).

See ANL paper: "Initial Vehicle Movement (IVM) time (the time at which the vehicle moves one foot) to the time at which the vehicle reaches 60 mph"
http://www.autonomie.net/docs/6 - Papers/Light duty/fuel_econom_sensitivity.pdf

Most manufacturers don't actually use the time from standstill (only perhaps the Europeans might given dragstrips are not as popular there).

 

[Swampgator]

Also, the rolling start is closer to real world driving.
I used to own a Honda S2000 which had a 0-60 time of around 5.6 seconds, so almost exactly what the base Model 3 aspires to. But in order to get that time you had to rev to 7000 rpm and then dump the clutch. Not something you would routinely do from a traffic light. So electric cars have rollout times that are very similar to their lunch mode times, while ICE cars rollout times are sometimes 1-2 seconds slower than their hard launch times.

 

[Zoomit]

Also, the rolling start is closer to real world driving.
I used to own a Honda S2000 which had a 0-60 time of around 5.6 seconds, so almost exactly what the base Model 3 aspires to. But in order to get that time you had to rev to 7000 rpm and then dump the clutch. Not something you would routinely do from a traffic light. So electric cars have rollout times that are very similar to their lunch mode times, while ICE cars rollout times are sometimes 1-2 seconds slower than their hard launch times.

I think you're conflating a rolling start with a 1 ft rollout.

 

[Swampgator]

You are correct. I read an article the other day that explained the 5-60 rolling start. Motor trend just subtracts the 1 ft roll out.
But my overall point still remains. EVs are faster than ICE under normal conditions, even if they have the same 0-60 time.