SageBrush
REJECT Fascism
I don't know what the roll-out of the Prime was in general but in the US it was widely available from about March
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Agreed. That doesn't mean that the same risks would be an issue with an established auto-maker with existing capital and ongoing revenue. VW is putting almost $90 Billion into electric car development. What if they had done that back in 2012, instead of fudging diesel numbers?
Thank you kindly.
I agree. I certainly hope Tesla succeeds. I just don't think we're anywhere close to thinking that's the case though.
VW is a well established manufacturer with many lines of cars and businesses along with government support. Something as large as dieselgate really didn't affect them all that much. A scandal that huge would totally wipe out Tesla. It really will be interesting in about 5 years when the ICE manufacturers really start cranking out EVs, what with their established plants and processes.
VW is a well established manufacturer with many lines of cars and businesses along with government support. Something as large as dieselgate really didn't affect them all that much. A scandal that huge would totally wipe out Tesla. It really will be interesting in about 5 years when the ICE manufacturers really start cranking out EVs, what with their established plants and processes.
It really will be even more interesting to see what Tesla accomplishes in those same 5 years, given what they have done in the last 5.
RT
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Barklikeadog
Active Member
The most interesting part will be the production costs for batteries and electric motors in the future....
Tesla is still tiny they don`t eat a lot of resources by themselves, but if mainstream manufacturers start actually ramping up EV production then we`ll see absolutely unprecedented prices for lithium, cobalt, neodym, samarium etc.
We´re also simply not capable of producing enough battery-capacity for a major turn to EVs atm. And 5 years is...ahem...optimistic for a drastic change there.
Volvo said recently that an EV power train might very well end up being 2-3x the price of a conventional ice one for the foreseeable future due to those factors.
That could indeed become a major problem for EVs in general.
No matter how "green" something is, people don`t like to pay extra.
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Dan Detweiler
Active Member
I think there is a very good reason that hasn't happened yet. Current EV technology means that range and performance suffer SIGNIFICANTLY with added load. I think perhaps Tesla and other manufacturers are trying to figure out how they can bring a pickup to market that will offer adequate hauling performance that owners would expect from a pickup but still produce practical ranges that keep the vehicle compelling.
It will be interesting how it all shakes out. Pickups don't have a world wide appeal, but they sure make up a HUGE market share here in America.
Dan
AZ Desert Driver
Rare combination
I just read an article about how/why Tesla builds their own seats. The rest of the world thinks seats are low margin/high labor and should be sent to outsourced suppliers. Tesla tried that and got uncomfortable Model X seats, and had supply chain problems. Others said This seat thing is not core competency in car making.
Based on this "established" supply point of view - I can see the policy of buying cheap stuff from outsourced suppliers as a crippling method for ICE cars. They are not building charging networks, building battery manufacturing, or even building seat manufacturing. Tesla is doing that (and other things) and has achieved Loyalty that is unmatched.
I think there are some buyers that will by emerging tech stuff - like me. There are some yet-to-be buyers that want EV, but not just yet- waiting on a more stable market. There are buyers that need time to let the idea soak in and be more mainstream - like my wife. And there are haters that will resist anything new as long as they can. Tesla will have some bumps in the steep up-slope ramp, but that ramp is up-slope for as far into the future as I can see.
Based on this "established" supply point of view - I can see the policy of buying cheap stuff from outsourced suppliers as a crippling method for ICE cars. They are not building charging networks, building battery manufacturing, or even building seat manufacturing. Tesla is doing that (and other things) and has achieved Loyalty that is unmatched.
I think there are some buyers that will by emerging tech stuff - like me. There are some yet-to-be buyers that want EV, but not just yet- waiting on a more stable market. There are buyers that need time to let the idea soak in and be more mainstream - like my wife. And there are haters that will resist anything new as long as they can. Tesla will have some bumps in the steep up-slope ramp, but that ramp is up-slope for as far into the future as I can see.
I´ve read this claim from several people already......my question here would be what you guys mean by that?
It´s not like there`s competition yet that people could wander off to if they`re not satisfied. Anyone who wants a premium EV has had only one choice so far, Tesla. Add to that that EV is still a tiny niche and you got a nice small enthusiast community. How you generalize that to "unmatched loyalty" is beyond me, though.
AZ Desert Driver
Rare combination
I guess you are right - there are Ford guys and Chevy guys - and each would defend their loyalty. Cant say their loyalty is more loyal than Tesla loyalty. Don't know how to measure that. But for me - this is the first car that Ive gotten hooked with, participate on blogs with, read every article and news story, invested in multiple tranches of stock. And I cheer when Tesla fixes a hospital or installs a farm in Australia.
Is there competition? I have owned luxury and performance ICE cars before Tesla, and still do. I've owned stocks before. But I've not been moved before.
Dan Detweiler
Active Member
I would interpret "unmatched loyalty" to mean vs. comparable ICE manufacturers.
Dan
Here is what Consumer Reports means by that:
Car Brands Ranked by Owner Satisfaction
Thank you kindly.
which means absolutely nothing given the nature of the "one choice-enthusiast niche" ev market....
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Barklikeadog
Active Member
Yup
Let others work out the problems. Losing your vehicle repeatedly and for long periods of time at service centers is like having your
flight delayed at the airport. It's hell. I saw a black model X driving this morning with a passenger side wing door that just looked off. As if
it were a couple inches open. Wtf
Brando
Active Member
reminder of GM EV-1;
Only available via lease thru Saturn division. 2 passenger
Market segment or demographic showed income levels +$250,000 (Mercedes, BMW, Audi - Cadillac not so much)
1996 - 1999 made <1,200 General Motors EV1 - Wikipedia you should read.
Court case against CARB which GM won in 2002?
about 2002 GM crushed EV-1s and many owners held a candlelight vigil over a car !!! a GM car!
Tesla Motors is formed July 2003 and Elon joins in 2004. I'd say TESLA built EV-2 --- the Roadster in 2008 - 2011.
I suggest checking out the below page for many more details of current EV history.
Links | TeslaTap
Brando
Active Member
reminder of Tesla R&D from 2010 - 2015 was less than $3 billion TOTAL !!
Culture of Innovation: Tesla has triple the R&D of traditional automakers [Infographic]
I suspect VW is dodging taxes. OR just what will VW come up with ??
FlatSix911
Porsche 918 Hybrid
Just what the world needs, the new breed of yokel with a jacked up electric pickup, adding a battery pack to the mass they've elevated above the height of where crash protection systems are designed to take a hit…
Sorry but that graphic is such bullshit propaganda it`s hard to look at it. REVENUE to R&D ratio ...and they compare it to manufacturers who produce and sell more in a month than Tesla in a year...seriously......Great infographic
Let`s make a chart so it looks scientific but let us also arbitrarily use KPIs that fit the picture we want.....
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