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diamond.g
Active Member
That must upset Audi/BMW/Mercedes-Benz. Tesla is pulling these folks from econoboxes, while they are not (at least in the same 1 time pre-order numbers).
GM must be upset as well as they have an alternative vehicle for the same price but not the same amount of fan fare.
Snowdog
Member
The big smiley face should have been indication that I am fully away of what I did. This bickering was all started by a BMW fan attacking Teslas for overheating on the track, and following by incessantly bragging how fast the 0-60 time is. 0-60 time achieved by "Launch Control" Which BMW warns to let cool down because overheating can harm components.
I found it richly ironic.
JohnSnowNW
Active Member
I think we can admit that his use of the term "peasant" when referring to these customers was meant derogatorily. That's a little different than saying the majority of Model 3 purchasers aren't coming from performance oriented vehicles.
voip-ninja
Give me some sugar baby
Tesla has a few draws that Audi/BMW/Mercedes don't have.
1. Tesla is seen as far more "green" by consumers who are willing to spend more to purchase a product they feel is better for the environment.
2. Tesla is seen as having a lower TCO over a long period of time compared to many other cars (whether that is realistic is another question).
3. Tesla is American and some people will spend more than they are comfortable to drive an American made "econobox" compared to one that is Japanese or European.
Now consumers like me put a deposit down on the Model 3 because we think at the upper end it will be competitive performance wise with offerings from other luxury automakers and the experience of driving electric is very different than driving an ICE vehicle regardless of performance.
What % that is of the 350K pre-orders is another question entirely... interestingly a poll in this forum indicates the majority of pre-orders are because of "technology/performance" vs other factors, where-as the comments here usually paint a much different picture.
Red Sage
The Cybernetic Samurai
FYI... Most ICE motors, in order to remain 'cool' operate in a range of roughly 200° Fahrenheit to as much as 500° Fahrenheit. The battery pack in a Tesla Model S must maintain a range of about 65° Fahrenheit to no more than 95° Fahrenheit in order to stay in the most optimum performance range. I'm not aware of too many high performance vehicles that finish 'The Ring' with an internal operating temperature that matches room temperature.
The Model S can certainly be run successfully at speed -- on the highway. You could certainly finish a 15 mile run across I-10 or I-20 at 120 MPH if you wanted to do so. On a short, closed course, where there are swift changes in elevation, sharp turns, maximum braking, followed by maximum acceleration, multiple times, over, and over, and over again...? Well, the system is designed to protect itself from such extremes for the sake of longevity. It likely monitors lots of things, pitch, yaw, acceleration, deceleration, traction, and others along with temperature... And if it determines the system is being stressed beyond the norm, it limits performance to keep it from killing itself.
The redline for tachometer or temperature gauge on an ICE is basically just a warning. But if you keep going, more often than not, the system will just break -- because you told it to. A Tesla Motors product is a little smarter than that. So, it tries to save itself, while also saving you the repair bills.
Maybe the time will come when a more robust heat exchange system is developed, so that the batteries can be kept in their optimum range more easily. Maybe batteries will be developed that have a wider optimum temperature range, so less stress is placed on cooling systems. Maybe it will be a combination of both? But without doubt, the ability to 'track' an electric car without compromise will definitely happen before long, and much sooner than many ICE fans think.
Snowdog
Member
Cooling an EV is simply an engineering trade off. There is Formula E, Electric racing. The 2015 overall winner of the Pikes Peak hill climb was an electric car. So you can cool an EV for racing/track usage if you want to.
But for a general purpose street car, a heavier, more expensive cooling system would be contraindicated.
Eventually people will build EV sports cars with better cooling, or before that you will be able to get upgraded aftermarket cooling.
Odd how few people notice that. Even a Mitsubishi iMIEV has great 0-30 performance. Most S owners and ICE owners don't realize how much fun it is to drive any true BEV because they all have instant response. In city driving they're all better than ICE, and most are easier to drive in cities than are S's. If only some builders would put "pocket rocket" style sex appeal in these cars we'd have lots more attraction.
Think about old examples like the original VW GTI, Fiat Uno Turbo ie,, the legion of Ford small cars from Lotus Cortina to Focus RS. That category would be stunning as BEV precisely because of all that instant torque. Ford, Nissan, Subaru, VW etc all could do that if they wanted to. But, they all seem to think that BEV's only attract slow drivers who do not like style and pizazz.
No wonder they do not understand Tesla!...or the attraction of the Leaf...
It's worth adding that we don't actually know why the S pulls back power on the track. We don't know what, if anything is actually overheating (battery, motor, inverter), or if it's just a pre-programmed software limit ("don't allow a duty cycle greater than X% at full power operation").
There's been lots of speculation, but I've never seen anything definitive.
There's been lots of speculation, but I've never seen anything definitive.
There's a bit of a catch-22 there. Rightly or wrongly, people attribute "style and pizazz" to performance. At the risk of offending Leaf owners here, I've never heard "style and pizazz" used to describe the car.But, they all seem to think that BEV's only attract slow drivers who do not like style and pizazz.
So the driver looking for performance discounts the Leaf as a "hippie weirdmobile", and never gives it a further look.
Sorry if this has been hashed out already in previous posts... So, is it most everyone's opinion that the highest performance version of the Tesla M3 will have equivalent or better performance than the Current BMW M3(F80 twin turbo I6) on the street and on the track?
Snowdog
Member
Street, yes.
Track, no.
A general purpose EV will not be engineered to have cooling necessary to go flat out on a track for long periods of time (race/multiple laps).
But the amount of people who actualy track their cars, is a niche way under 1% of the market.
With so many advantages, some people will look for any potential weakness, to play up, even if it is completely irrelevant in the real world.
Thank you for the Summary. I feared that maybe the case. I considered purchasing the S back in 2013, and decided it was a bit too big for my taste. As an Auto enthusiast that tracks at least once a month, I was hoping for an EV that would be competitive to other popular cars being tracked. I did reserve the Model 3 on 3/31... I was really looking to reduce my car count, not add, but it looks like I'll be using the Model 3 on the street and keeping my F80 M3 and other track toys...
This may sound like a cop out, but I don't even want to run my street car on the track. I want a dedicated track car that has WAY more safety features. My track car is not remotely street legal, has a full on welded roll cage with nascar bars (interior of door removed and beefy side bars protruding into the door), 5 point harnesses that accommodate HANS device, etc. I have learned that my ability to go 7/10ths on a track is not good. So, to me, whether EVs are good on a track or not is completely irrelevant. The Model S is perfect for my street needs. My track cars are purpose built...
I get it. I have a 996 GT3 & a 240SX dedicated track cars. I also instruct new track drivers. But I do enjoy running my street cars at the track and doing time trials as well. I will be taking the Model 3 out on the track just to see what it does, but as I indicated earlier, it will just be a daily car for me, if the speculation comes true...
The question of the the track readiness of an S is pretty silly in my opinion.
Few stock ICE cars, even high performance ones, can stand up to track use at higher levels of driver skill.
Overheating of the engine and the transmission can be real problems requiring coolers.
Running in 3rd and 4th gear at speeds up to 130 or more, which is typical of my track experience, will easily overheat lots of cars on hot days. The brakes on a stock car need to be upgraded with serious pads, not those dustless puppies. And they need to be replaced every few days at the track. Rotors don't last very long either on stock cars driven really fast. And then the tires are basically disposable every few days on the track. Back in the early 2000's the M3's had a reputation for blowing their engines on the track and there were a number of youtube videos about it. And at least when I did a lot of track driving 10 y ago, the M3's needed quite a few mods for track driving at high levels.
So really, track ability is not a criterion for a good street car and few street cars, other than special high end models can stand up to serious track driving. I have no doubt that a BEV track car can be built, but it is absurd overkill for driving everywhere else.
On the other hand I have to laugh when I see people refer to the good handling of the S. Its a very heavy car and it may handle better than or as well as other very heavy sedans, but a lot of what makes a good handling car in absolute terms is low weight and BEV's don't have that.
I'm sure that these are wonderful highway cars, but their track ability, as others have noted, is irrelevant.
As are their 0-60 times once one gets to around 5 seconds or so.
Few stock ICE cars, even high performance ones, can stand up to track use at higher levels of driver skill.
Overheating of the engine and the transmission can be real problems requiring coolers.
Running in 3rd and 4th gear at speeds up to 130 or more, which is typical of my track experience, will easily overheat lots of cars on hot days. The brakes on a stock car need to be upgraded with serious pads, not those dustless puppies. And they need to be replaced every few days at the track. Rotors don't last very long either on stock cars driven really fast. And then the tires are basically disposable every few days on the track. Back in the early 2000's the M3's had a reputation for blowing their engines on the track and there were a number of youtube videos about it. And at least when I did a lot of track driving 10 y ago, the M3's needed quite a few mods for track driving at high levels.
So really, track ability is not a criterion for a good street car and few street cars, other than special high end models can stand up to serious track driving. I have no doubt that a BEV track car can be built, but it is absurd overkill for driving everywhere else.
On the other hand I have to laugh when I see people refer to the good handling of the S. Its a very heavy car and it may handle better than or as well as other very heavy sedans, but a lot of what makes a good handling car in absolute terms is low weight and BEV's don't have that.
I'm sure that these are wonderful highway cars, but their track ability, as others have noted, is irrelevant.
As are their 0-60 times once one gets to around 5 seconds or so.
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