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Model 3 Supercharging Capable Discussion

rnelsonee

Member
Feb 20, 2016
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120
Maryland
This was found by others in other Model 3 and Model S threads (Az_Rael and jmsurpri, namely), but I think it's important for everyone to see: Tesla updated the wording on their Model 3 page for the Supercharger feature from "Supercharging" to "Supercharging capable". So... don't expect to get Supercharging without a fee (either up front or per use).

rT1wYda.png
 
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ikjadoon

Member
Aug 23, 2013
326
518
So, regarding free Supercharging: remember this video, where JB Straubel says the first million or so cars will be able to use Supercharging for free.

Hmm...and, Musk just said doubling Superchargers by the end of 2017. They'll have barely started any 3 deliveries. By the end of 2018, where the # of Tesla cars goes from 100k to 200k, they might have 4x the number of Superchargers now...
 

Snowdog

Member
Feb 19, 2013
130
154
Ottawa, Canada
So, regarding free Supercharging: remember this video, where JB Straubel says the first million or so cars will be able to use Supercharging for free.

He is saying it would be feasible. Doesn't mean that is what they will do.

No matter how you slice it, it isn't free. It isn't remotely close to free.

Remember on the cheapest Model S, it used to cost $2000(IIRC) to get "free" access to Superchargers.

They increased the base price of the cheapest Model S, then it was buried in the cost of the car, but you are still paying for it.

Easy to do that, on a high margin $70K luxury car.

It's a lot harder on a lower margin $35K car, with more price sensitive customers.
 

Saghost

Well-Known Member
Oct 9, 2013
8,224
7,088
Delaware
Remember on the cheapest Model S, it used to cost $2000(IIRC) to get "free" access to Superchargers.

They increased the base price of the cheapest Model S, then it was buried in the cost of the car, but you are still paying for it.

No, they didn't! Supercharging was alway optional/extra cost on the S60, including after the single time the base price was increased, from $67495 to $70k. It became standard when they went to the 70 kWh battery. The base price of the S70 then and now? $70k. This despite getting the Navigation and Supercharging both standard.

Yes, Tesla is spending money to give you Supercharging, and car sales are their only nominal source of income, so everything they do is "buried in the price of the car." But no, Tesla didn't simply raise the price of the car to fold the cost directly in.
Walter
 

Snowdog

Member
Feb 19, 2013
130
154
Ottawa, Canada
No, they didn't! Supercharging was alway optional/extra cost on the S60, including after the single time the base price was increased, from $67495 to $70k. It became standard when they went to the 70 kWh battery. The base price of the S70 then and now? $70k. This despite getting the Navigation and Supercharging both standard.

Yes, Tesla is spending money to give you Supercharging, and car sales are their only nominal source of income, so everything they do is "buried in the price of the car." But no, Tesla didn't simply raise the price of the car to fold the cost directly in.
Walter

So I was off on the timing, but it was still $2k option on their cheapest car, and only folded in after that car was $70K.

It's a lot harder to fold that into $35K car.

I bet this will be considered a luxury item. Included on the top models, and an extra cost option on low end models.
 
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Saghost

Well-Known Member
Oct 9, 2013
8,224
7,088
Delaware
So I was off on the timing, but it was still $2k option on their cheapest car, and only folded in after that car was $70K.

True - though it was always included on the 85 kWh cars, which got the exact same $2505 price increase. :)

My assumption was the same - that Tesla would make it an option on the $35k car. However, Elon's statements at the reveal seem very clear. It seems Tesla feels the extra demand it'll create is worth the loss of profit the option would have generated - I'm certainly not in a position to judge if they are correct.
Walter
 
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Snowdog

Member
Feb 19, 2013
130
154
Ottawa, Canada
My assumption was the same - that Tesla would make it an option on the $35k car. However, Elon's statements at the reveal seem very clear. It seems Tesla feels the extra demand it'll create is worth the loss of profit the option would have generated - I'm certainly not in a position to judge if they are correct.

It was clear to me that Elon was hedging. Followup from the Tesla PR department yielded:

"All Model 3 will have the capability for Supercharging. We haven't specified (and aren't right now) whether supercharging will be free." "

Even if I misheard Elons hedge, the Tesla PR department is crystal clear, that they are still deciding how this will be handled.
 

Ulmo

Active Member
Jan 19, 2016
4,329
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Vienna Woods, Aptos, California
I think you people are reading way too much into the supercharging thing.

A perceived bait-and-switch dishonesty would be far worse than having said nothing at all.

Supercharging is a feature that gives Tesla a competitive advantage and exists for them to sell more cars. The cost is a pittance if it sells more cars. Charging for it would be stupid - being dishonest (or coy, or whatever you want to call it) about charging people for it would be stupider.

Unfortunately, the problem of local users using SuperChargers is real, and Tesla is wise to allow themselves the room to disallow local charging. I have been advocating that they do the following three things:

1. Decide to stop giving away local charging, and perhaps all free charging. (Because Tesla already committed to free supercharging for Model S & X, I said they should start #1 charging for Supercharger access with the Model 3. I'm glad they are.)
2. Make plain distance-based policies regarding #1 that everyone can understand.
3. Make this all very public.

For now, we get this (probably false) impression that Tesla is walking in the dark on this one into a situation where there will be common knife fights at SuperChargers in ten years due to all the competing locals who want free juice.

If Tesla always say they can do usage charges for SuperChargers for all Model 3's, then that would give them much more leniency to be able to charge a usage charge of "not very much" for long distance travel vs. "a lot" for local travel, to subsidize the case where electric vehicles are at a disadvantage, but not the case where people could charge at home. So, charge users the same amount they would pay at home for local charging + a convenience fee of not installing your local apartment or home charger, and have a discount for anyone who has GPS of going X distance per day, so that long trips will not be penalized for not being gas guzzlers.

They can also charge for time of use; when the solar panels are going strong and there's no Supercharger slot congestion, the cost can be very low. This would encourage local users who want low cost electricity to come during sunlight hours when there aren't many users. Their wife could swap cars with their husband every day and during errands when it is off-peak (mid-day highest solar power) park the Model 3 at a SuperCharger and do some shopping and come back when it's full, and the next day do the other car like that. When the batteries and electric grid are doing most of the heavy lifting (such as nighttime) and/or the SuperCharger is very congested, prices can go up to what you would pay at home.
 
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ecarfan

Well-Known Member
Sep 21, 2013
19,411
14,422
West Vancouver, British Columbia
It was clear to me that Elon was hedging. Followup from the Tesla PR department yielded:

"All Model 3 will have the capability for Supercharging. We haven't specified (and aren't right now) whether supercharging will be free." "

Even if I misheard Elons hedge, the Tesla PR department is crystal clear, that they are still deciding how this will be handled.
If that is a direct statement from an authoritative source at Tesla (as opposed to someone at a showroom or service center) then it seems that the $35K base Model 3 price may or may not include free Supercharging and Tesla has not definitively decided yet, or has decided and isn't saying. They could have made a preliminary decision either way and aren't announcing it because they want to give themselves the chance to change their mind without causing confusion.

Bottom line to me: we just don't know, only Tesla management knows and they may not be sure yet.
 

Ulmo

Active Member
Jan 19, 2016
4,329
4,905
Vienna Woods, Aptos, California
It was clear to me that Elon was hedging. Followup from the Tesla PR department yielded:

"All Model 3 will have the capability for Supercharging. We haven't specified (and aren't right now) whether supercharging will be free." "

Even if I misheard Elons hedge, the Tesla PR department is crystal clear, that they are still deciding how this will be handled.

I watched the reveal again right now, and the background graphics said "Supercharging Capable" and Elon said "Supercharging will come standard". Remember back when the Model S was introduced and SuperCharging capability was an additional charge except for top-end models? Now, the capability will be included standard: that means, you will be allowed to Supercharge ANY MODEL 3 from inception.

I'll isolate that logic to make it look squishy when it isn't:

YOU WILL ALWAYS BE ABLE TO SUPERCHARGE EVERY MODEL 3! NO MATTER WHAT!

Ok, what's missing? The cost. How much does it cost to ALWAYS BE ABLE TO SUPERCHARGE EVERY MODEL 3?

included in base price,




plus,

if you actually want to use it, usage fees perhaps. That wasn't specified!

So, in effect, I think you are 100% correct.
 
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MrBoylan

Member
Aug 2, 2013
945
270
New York, NY
If that is a direct statement from an authoritative source at Tesla (as opposed to someone at a showroom or service center)
It was from someone at Tesla corporate, pretty high up in Public Relations. I'd rather not publish the name as I didn't ask permission, but if you read a lot of stories on Tesla and see the name of the "company spokesperson" you'd recognize it. :)

then it seems that the $35K base Model 3 price may or may not include free Supercharging and Tesla has not definitively decided yet, or has decided and isn't saying. They could have made a preliminary decision either way and aren't announcing it because they want to give themselves the chance to change their mind without causing confusion.

Bottom line to me: we just don't know, only Tesla management knows and they may not be sure yet.
Yep, that's my take on it. Particularly since they changed the wording on the Model 3 page list of core features from "Supercharging - long distance travel" to "Supercharging Capable" on the first day that page was live.
 

Ben W

P85 #61, Roadster #108
Feb 27, 2009
664
563
Santa Barbara, CA
To reduce overcrowding and abuse, I hope Tesla implements something like a pay-per-minute supercharging model, where the charge is waived if the vehicle is driven 100mi+ within 24h before/after. (But not if the vehicle is plugged in more than 15min past completion with all stalls full.) The trick is to have a simple set of rules that allows supercharging to be truly free when used properly and responsibly, while minimizing abuse and the number of “unfair” corner cases.
 
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TEG

Teslafanatic
Aug 20, 2006
21,925
9,071
I honestly wish there was a per charge fee, even on the Model S.
It would solve the local charging issue very quickly. When I'm traveling long distance I'd rather pay more, than wait longer.

They could do something variable to discourage local charging.
Like only fees for use of superchargers within X miles of your home address.
Or fees if you use the same supercharging location again within some time period. (Say only one per week at the same location for example.)
To help with Road trips, if your vehicle is seen charging again further way it resets your free to use status so you can go back on a return trip without paying.
Something along those lines.
 

ohmman

Plaid-ish Moderator
Feb 13, 2014
10,194
18,709
North Bay, CA
Something along those lines.
I imagine that there are pretty solid machine learning algorithms that can be used to detect the behavior in most cases. I mean, credit card companies do a great job detecting fraud lately using anomaly detection algorithms. It'd be easy enough to train the model - here are some people abusing the system - then let it detect. The downside with this method is that false positives are likely to draw a lot of ire, and people sometimes want to know the rules so they can live within them.
 

Chuq

Active Member
Jan 1, 2015
3,441
4,188
Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
To reduce overcrowding and abuse, I hope Tesla implements something like a pay-per-minute supercharging model, where the charge is waived if the vehicle is driven 100mi+ within 24h before/after. (But not if the vehicle is plugged in more than 15min past completion with all stalls full.) The trick is to have a simple set of rules that allows supercharging to be truly free when used properly and responsibly, while minimizing abuse and the number of “unfair” corner cases.

I don't think the conditions you mentioned could be described as a "simple set of rules" ?
 

TEG

Teslafanatic
Aug 20, 2006
21,925
9,071
Some use cases make such schemes difficult:
#1: Someone who buys a Tesla because they live in an apartment with no available overnight outlet, so they hope to charge daily at their local supercharger.
#2: A car hire service, like a limo service, or Uber driver.

Would Tesla want to discourage / prevent those types of customers?
 
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Chuq

Active Member
Jan 1, 2015
3,441
4,188
Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
#2: A car hire service, like a limo service, or Uber driver.

my first thought was definitely discourage taxi services using them. They are not only receiving subsidised unlimited fuel but they are using it for commercial gain.

Of course the downside to this is that a Tesla-based taxi service is great marketing for the car.. and taxis do a huge number of km in a day, so changing them from oil to electric does serve the company's overall environment plan well.
 

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