Model 3 Supercharging Capable Discussion

[ikjadoon]

It shouldn't be free per use. Sure, most people will likely charge at home, but the minority who decide to abuse the superchargers will ruin the experience for everyone else. Don't underestimate people's willingness to wildly inconvenience themselves for something they perceive as free.

Good points and great examples. One idea I saw on reddit that I really liked:

Supercharging is always "free" for all cars. However, if you sit in a charger spot after your charge is already done, you will be charged a "late disconnect" fee. Maybe $5 for the first 10 minutes, maybe $40 for the next 20 minutes, etc. This way, you can only blame yourself if you get fined.

Also, this could be extreme, but for maybe for time's sake, at the peak of peak times, they disable 90% to 100% charging because it takes so long. Since there will be so many more superchargers, nobody's trip will be made impossible.

Do we know if the SC sends back info or if the car sends back info about it's charging. According to @wk057 currently it doesn't appear to care what the VIN is, just that you have the bit for SC enabled at the car.

It definitely does! But, not sure if it's unique. But, they know how many cars are charging at a station. That info will be integrated into the nav with an update so it can plan around busy chargers.

 

[MP3Mike]

It definitely does! But, not sure if it's unique. But, they know how many cars are charging at a station. That info will be integrated into the nav with an update so it can plan around busy chargers.

And you know that it is the SC sending that data and not the car?

 

[ikjadoon]

And you know that it is the SC sending that data and not the car?

Oh, sheesh, I understand your original question now. Sorry. I don't know about that.

It could be either, honestly. The cars definitely have the data antennas, but I imagine the superchargers, too, right? I mean, they must monitor them for maintenance and what-not.

 

[apacheguy]

Pay per use for the lower end models. Included with the larger packs.

 

[xmetal]

I'm glad that the hardware is "capable" as standard. I personally do not want to pay $2500 (or whatever) to allow supercharging access however, as I personally don't think I would use it more than a handful of times per year. I charge my car at home, and would only need SC for specifically planned trips. I doubt I would use even $500 worth of SC in many years time, so for me I hope that if it's not just a "free forever" from the start that there is a pay-for-use option. I'd be plenty happy to give them my credit card on file and just use it when I need it. Like the Apple iTunes store. They have my info, I rarely actually buy anything on there but when I do it's instant and seamless.

 

[MP3Mike]

Oh, sheesh, I understand your original question now. Sorry. I don't know about that.

It could be either, honestly. The cars definitely have the data antennas, but I imagine the superchargers, too, right? I mean, they must monitor them for maintenance and what-not.

I only asked that because I recall Model S owners mentioning that when they had problems at a SC that Tesla asked them to stay hooked up to the Supercharger they were having issues with because they couldn't contact the SCs directly. (So I don't know if Tesla installs an Internet connection at every Supercharger location or not.)

 

[ohmman]

I personally support the concept of building Supercharger buildout costs into the car with an added nominal cost per minute at the stall for maintenance. Call it an "occupancy fee". Not charging for electricity, just for taking up valuable space. It provides the correct disincentive to charge for charging sake, and it could still be very inexpensive while being effective.

Even though I have an S and X, I'd still be fine with paying the occupancy fee (per @1208's suggestion). Technically I am getting free Supercharging for life.

Unfortunately, I think something important is also lost with this scheme. When Supercharging is free, I do think it provides a psychological incentive to road trip "for free", which displaces ICE vehicles and indeed short airplane rides. With the whole mission of Tesla, this seems to play more heavily into advancing sustainable transport. Of course, as @Mark Z noted above, he chooses his ICE if he thinks the chargers will be congested. So congestion might be a stronger deterrent than a nominal fee.

 

[starlord111]

I recently read an article about Tesla partnering up with ORLEN a petrol company from Poland. Orlen has petrol stations all over Poland apparently they will build in superchargers at Orlen stations. I do not understand what's in it for the petrol company. There aren't any SC's in Poland yet but they are planned for this year.

Orlen już stawia ładowarki dla Tesli

 

[TexasEV]

I'm glad that the hardware is "capable" as standard. I personally do not want to pay $2500 (or whatever) to allow supercharging access however, as I personally don't think I would use it more than a handful of times per year. I charge my car at home, and would only need SC for specifically planned trips. I doubt I would use even $500 worth of SC in many years time, so for me I hope that if it's not just a "free forever" from the start that there is a pay-for-use option. I'd be plenty happy to give them my credit card on file and just use it when I need it. Like the Apple iTunes store. They have my info, I rarely actually buy anything on there but when I do it's instant and seamless.

Seamless for you but not for Apple. They need a massive investment and ongoing expense to support that.

One thing you and other posters with similar opinion don't get is that once you start driving a Tesla, you won't want to take your ICE on long trips any more. There are dozens of stories like this from early Model S buyers who never thought they'd be driving it long distance either.

 

[vjason]

Net profit on gas at stations (in the US anyway) averages around 3 cents a gallon (Station Owners Like Low Gas Prices as Much as You Do).

Net profit on twinkies and bottles of soda is usually 6-8 times that, at least it was at my parents shop growing up. Don't even get me started on profit on coffee.

People with 20-30 minutes to kill at a gas station are probably much more likely to buy something from there than a gas and go customer. I'm assuming that Poland is like the US, and that their gas stations sell much more than just gas.

If I owned a gas station and had the available space I'd offer to install Tesla superchargers too. So long as they install it and pay the electric bill and I'll take care of the rest. Honestly I think you'll see this more and more as gas stations try and stay relevant as the number of BEVs increase, even if they are charging for the privilege.

I recently read an article about Tesla partnering up with ORLEN a petrol company from Poland. Orlen has petrol stations all over Poland apparently they will build in superchargers at Orlen stations. I do not understand what's in it for the petrol company. There aren't any SC's in Poland yet but they are planned for this year.

Orlen już stawia ładowarki dla Tesli

 

[diamond.g]

I recently read an article about Tesla partnering up with ORLEN a petrol company from Poland. Orlen has petrol stations all over Poland apparently they will build in superchargers at Orlen stations. I do not understand what's in it for the petrol company. There aren't any SC's in Poland yet but they are planned for this year.

Orlen już stawia ładowarki dla Tesli

Is Tesla paying them for power?

 

[Mark Z]

Elon has always wanted the Superchargers used for road trips, not to replace charging at home.

It would make sense for Tesla Motors to bill more than a home rate for those who charge near home. It could be a good encouragement to install a home EVSE and consider a second meter rate where available.

 

[hoang51]

A quick Google returns these:
Tesla Sends Out Supercharger Abuse Emails - Model S Owners Not Impressed
Tesla Letter To “Frequent” Supercharger Users Ruffles Feathers & Raises Several Questions

Thanks for the links.

 

[TaoJones]

Supercharging shouldn't be free for Model 3, otherwise it will cause massive congestion and abuse in superchargers worldwide.

It certainly will not. 90% of owners don't use SCs now. The majority of M3 owners won't either.

Handwringing and alarmist rhetoric is neither interesting nor helpful.

Add greater range, greater charging efficiency, the abject failure of any pay-per-use model relative to Tesla's mission, Straubel's quoted statement that maybe when they get to a million cars they'll revisit the business model, and the fact that there won't be hundreds of thousands of M3s in either the US or Europe until 2020 at best. And that's not all.

Nothing like a solution in search of a problem.

More probable is the base model without SCing enabled, with the option of enabling it in the future for ~$2,500. Similar to AP convenience features now.

Many many people don't drive outside a 50-mile radius of their homes, folks. They don't like traffic and they'd rather fly than drive, or they have a minivan and like it.

Moreover, these same people, if they all did acquire M3s at once and didn't have a garage between them, might charge 1x/week in metro areas. Given Tesla's commitment to DENSITY as well as DISTANCE, the network can handle it, and in large measure, it will be self-regulating. When's the last time you got gas after work on a Friday?

 

[ThirdRail]

Hopefully my Model 3 arrival will coincide with my retirement, so I will need the Supercharger network to travel around the country. Plan on putting on some serious miles. (of course for some Tesla owners, that amounts to 40,000 miles a year....or more)

 

[wdolson]

Sadly by last summer, with only 1/10th that many on the road the lines were already getting frustratingly long on busy routes (eg San Francisco to Los Angeles) on busy days like summer Sunday's. It sucked. With 10x the vehicles they will need at least 5x the charging stands (assuming some use efficiency improvements) and Elon only just promised twice as many. As others have said - something will have to give.

They may well increase superchargers by 5X along heavily traveled routes. There are only a few of those and a heck of a lot of superchargers in the middle of nowhere that get very light use. At least half the supercharger network, probably more like 2/3 won't need any expansion at all to support the first couple of years of the Model 3.

Tesla is filling orders west to east in the US first, then other countries. Elon just promised the network would be doubled by the end of 2017, he didn't say they were stopping. By the end of 2017, they will concentrate on building SCs in the west which will be impacted first by the Model 3. Then they will use profits from the first sales of the Model 3 to build out the eastern US to support the Model 3. They will then use profits from the eastern US Model 3s to build out the first country they expand to after the US and so on.

Tesla also has said they will build the highly optioned cars first. This is an economic decision. Tesla has very low margins on the base model cars and makes the most money on the most optioned versions. By selling highly optioned versions, they make the most money which gives them the most cash to do the next step.

In 2015 Tesla lost a lot of money but it was because they were running two development programs at once: the Model X and 3. When the Model 3 is introduced, they will be working on the Model Y, but it probably won't be as expensive. The Model S and X production lines will be mature and the Model 3 will start to change from a net loss to a net gain. With all those profits coming in, they will have a lot of cash to invest and expanding the infrastructure to support a lot more cars on the road will become priority #1.

The problem now is a bit of a chicken and egg problem. They don't have the money to build out the infrastructure to fully support the Model 3, so they will need to do it in stages as the Model 3 rolls out, but stage 1 will be in place fueled by Model S and X sales when the Model 3 is introduced in the area where they will be on the road. I think this is the primary reason why Tesla is introducing the Model 3 geographically like this.

 

[wdolson]

Valets cost money per hour. I am guessing the desire from corporate would be to remove the cost if possible. Currently there is no alternative but to have the delay. Imagine the network knows how many cars are waiting at a supercharger and how long they'll need to charge. It should be possible for your screen to tell you how much wait is at each supercharger. I would guess that knowledge would help people not be frustrated. If I was doing a road trip and knew that the total time from arrival to fully charged would be 1 hour 20 minutes then I would know what I was getting into. It would also be possible to charge for things like priority or have your car know roughly when you were arriving based on your GPS route info.

Tesla now has the ability to drive cars without anybody in the car. I think they will modify the summon feature to allow autopilot equipped cars to be moved to a standard parking place after charging at chargers with auto charging arms. This would allow people to get a meal or shop and the car will move itself when done charging.

They could also institute supercharger rationing when a supercharger gets backed up. A car can only super charge for 20 minutes or something like that and then it will be moved. I expect they will also be building new SC facilities within 25-50 miles of all the busiest superchargers, so if you arrive at a busy SC at very low range, you can still get enough range to get to the next SC or the next one after that which will probably be less crowded.

 

[my.S3XY]

probably following current Supercharging is enabled (no additional cost) on every 70 kWh, 85 kWh, and 90 kWh and future 90+ kWh.

$2,500USD Available on 60 kWh only. Not available on 40 kWh cars

 

[minderbinder]

Here's one way they could handle supercharger fees that I think would satisfy (most) everybody:

Allow owners to purchase supercharger access in units of 'charging miles' - say, 1000 mile units. Your car keeps track, can tell you when you're getting low, has a button to purchase more, etc. Most importantly, with every new car, Tesla gives you a starting amount for free: maybe 1000 or 2000 miles for the base version, and more (or unlimited) for cars with bigger batteries, or more options.

Why is this good? Because, supercharging becomes free for the majority of people who only use it occasionally. In fact, given the psychology of gift cards and frequent flyer programs, those people will actively shun the superchargers unless they really need them, in order to preserve their 'free miles'. If you want to local charge - go ahead, but you're going to pay for it. Regular long-distance traveller? Maybe buy unlimited access.

 

[MP3Mike]

But isn't unlimited access what Tesla has sold in the past for $2,500 and people say it is too cheap and will cause problems?