Model 3 Supercharging Capable Discussion

[AZ Desert Driver]

Yea - I think that "convenience store" model sounds like a long range winner. What would the merchant need to do to draw in business ?- "free" SC to the early-adopter fraternity, a few cents more for tesla newbies driving a model x,y,z; a few cents more for non-tesla. Kinda like premium gas (70 amp charging) and mid grade (40 amp) and low test (15 amp)

Now, when would this fraternity vs. newbie work. Perhaps after some entrepreneur build their own charging stations, sell donuts and coffee and sees if power cost draws customers. smell "franchise"?

 

[stopcrazypp]

The public (read: government) will have to buy into the charging infrastructure at some point. This seems like an ideal set-up to partner with the local power utility to arrange publicly available charging stations throughout their area. Charging per kWh would work out quite fine, given that it's the utility doing the charging. If the capital cost is split between the government (seeking to make EVs worthwhile to their citizens as well as making their city an inviting destination for tourists) and the utility (who could recoup their costs via equal or slightly higher rates than what they offer residential customers) you can avoid the difficulty that third party attempts currently encounter, namely that they have to charge rates far in excess of the actual cost of power in order to recoup their capital cost.

Tesla cannot be the sole solution to the issues of charging infrastructure unless other manufacturers are going to buy into the network. If the cost is borne entirely by Tesla and it's customers, it's just not going to be feasible, unless their next growth goal is to be a manufacturer of energy beyond supplementing the power supplied to their gigafactory(s). At some point, the government (of the people) will have to prioritize the availability of EV charging because we care about the future of our planet for our children and be heavily involved in making this more practical than it currently is. This coming from a staunch libertarian that dislikes government involvement in most things.

In Japan and Europe this is happening, but in the US, you can pretty much forget about it. After burning up money with the Ecotality debacle, I doubt the federal government will be doing another large EV infrastructure project any time soon. Down to the state level, even the most proactive in EVs (California) is only doing the bare minimum. Right now it is largely down to private companies, and moving extremely slow compared to other countries/regions (other than Tesla which is funding infrastructure from car sales).

 

[Steepler2k]

Yea - I think that "convenience store" model sounds like a long range winner. What would the merchant need to do to draw in business ?- "free" SC to the early-adopter fraternity, a few cents more for tesla newbies driving a model x,y,z; a few cents more for non-tesla. Kinda like premium gas (70 amp charging) and mid grade (40 amp) and low test (15 amp)

Now, when would this fraternity vs. newbie work. Perhaps after some entrepreneur build their own charging stations, sell donuts and coffee and sees if power cost draws customers. smell "franchise"?

For highway charging, yes. For destination/local charging, probably less so. That's going to require more creative options, I think.

 

[SpiceWare]

so suppose I decided to drive down to San Diego for a day trip. San Diego is my destination.

I see a whole slew of charging options in San Diego:


Any chance you'd be going to the zoo?

 

[Az_Rael]

What would the merchant need to do to draw in business ?-

Oh, I don't think offering free electricity to anyone would be a good model. They would draw in business by strategically locating them in remote locations where people need to stop and "fill up". Think Baker, California on the way to Vegas from LA. Maybe even one in Tejon Ranch that can handle the overflow from the supercharger. (I could see a big sign at Tejon Ranch: "DC fast charging $XX and NO WAIT!! Head over to EZ Ed's!). They could even rent Chademo/CCS adapters for the unprepared Tesla drivers. Or one in Barstow with good lighting and security cameras.

This model isn't geared just at Tesla, but all the Bolts, 2nd gen Leafs, etc that might start venturing out on long distance trips. I would imagine California would be the first place to start a business like this, since the EV population will hit critical mass quicker than other parts of the country.

 

[ohmman]

As an example, consider this: I live in the LA area, so suppose I decided to drive down to San Diego for a day trip. San Diego is my destination. Now, guess how many of the destination chargers in San Diego are at hotels? All but one. So on my day trip to my destination, just how many charging stations do I have access to besides the supercharger? ONE. ONE destination charger in the entirety of the San Diego metropolitan area is available to me on my day trip down there.

How exactly does that help reduce my 'range anxiety'?

Destination chargers are easy for Tesla and the numbers look impressive, but they do NOT help owners to the degree that those numbers would suggest.

There are a couple of Supercharger options, depending on where you're going from/to in your hypothetical trip, but I get your point - in less Supercharger-dense areas, it may not be as straightforward for a lower range Model 3.

Destination chargers are very useful for road trips. I have made regular use of them. On a recent trip to Portland, I stopped at a Best Western in Sutherlin and charged at their HPWC. Doing so allowed me to skip charging in Springfield the following morning. I left Sutherlin with a 90% charge, which allowed me to pick up a friend and make it all the way to Hood River. Portland has destination chargers which have allowed me to leave and skip the Woodburn, OR Supercharger. I've used them in Seattle, Half Moon Bay, Laguna Niguel, etc. They're much more convenient than Superchargers when your trip isn't merely a day trip - I almost always schedule my overnights in locations with destination chargers.

So while they certainly don't help with some long day trips, they do reduce congestion at the Superchargers near their locations.

 

[AZ Desert Driver]

Exactly my point - The more chargers, the better the system for all EV. Destination chargers contribute the the viability of the EV market, perhaps even more than SC because there are so many more of them. They have a draw to the customer to that establishment - hotel/restaurant/connivence store. SC offer quick/free, but don't offer donuts. Both contribute to the EV master plan.

 

[Archer]

It's not semantics - you are trivializing.

If I drive my car to an area where there are 15 destination chargers, and only 2 or 3 of them are at any publicly accessible space, then they don't have a material effect on helping me have a place to charge my car. You may be interested to know that nation-wide, the majority of destination chargers are at hotels. So unless you are actually staying at one of them, then no, they don't materially contribute to soothing range anxiety because you cannot use them.

As an example, consider this: I live in the LA area, so suppose I decided to drive down to San Diego for a day trip. San Diego is my destination. Now, guess how many of the destination chargers in San Diego are at hotels? All but one. So on my day trip to my destination, just how many charging stations do I have access to besides the supercharger? ONE. ONE destination charger in the entirety of the San Diego metropolitan area is available to me on my day trip down there.

How exactly does that help reduce my 'range anxiety'?

Destination chargers are easy for Tesla and the numbers look impressive, but they do NOT help owners to the degree that those numbers would suggest.

Range anxiety for a day trip to San Diego from Irvine? Seriously? Ok, maybe you are more on the pessimistic side, but check out Plugshare and you'll find a dozen or so locations with Tesla HPWCs. Read some of the comments and a lot of people were able to charge without being guests. And some places may charge you a small fee.

I've put over 80K miles on my MS in just a year and half and I've used most of the SCs in the west and I've rarely had to wait. I also plan trips that require overnight stays at places that have HPWC and they are great because I don't have to worry about hitting a SC just to continue my trip the next day. Life is too short to worry about something that may or may not happen in the future. Especially if it's beyond your control. If you reserved a M3, have some faith in Musk and Co. - they are a lot smarter and have more data than all of us.

 

[ikjadoon]

I suspect there's a lack of demand. I live in the largest city in Alabama and I've seen maybe 5 Teslas here. Rarely see a Leaf, occasionally a Volt. I've heard of the BMW dealer selling a few of their new PHEVs. There are no Tesla stores or service centers in the entire state. That, plus round the clock energy being roughly average makes me think demand just isn't there.

Of course, I could be wrong. They could very well have the plan and not advertise it. I played around on the website after placing my model 3 reservation and I couldn't find any mention of a variable billing based on time of day. Timing is so far away for me that there's not really much point in picking up the phone to see if it's something that's available only if asked.

Right, right, sure. I think these questions will have a lot more info and merit in about 16 months.

Gee - I might buy lunch at a hotel if they let me fill. Just gotta ask.

So, that drives up the cost of owning an electric car, then, if you need to purchase "side-items" just to charge while you're in a city. Not a terrible thing (hey, you get food), but it absolutely restricts you. What if you had planned to eat somewhere different (or, more truthfully, cheaper) than a hotel?

 

[EcoHeliGuy]

Right, right, sure. I think these questions will have a lot more info and merit in about 16 months.



So, that drives up the cost of owning an electric car, then, if you need to purchase "side-items" just to charge while you're in a city. Not a terrible thing (hey, you get food), but it absolutely restricts you. What if you had planned to eat somewhere different (or, more truthfully, cheaper) than a hotel?

He isn't saying he has to buy food to get a charge. There are tons of public chargers around. He is saying if he buys food, there is a complimentary charge included.

 

[AZ Desert Driver]

Thats the point. Why would a merchant set up a charging station - but to draw customers. Presumably Tesla customers have fatter wallets, so drawing them into the merchant is good marketing. And If I am drawn in? I really don't mind patronizing. Just like pulling into a 7-11 and using the bathroom, I usually buy a token something just to be fair. Same on electrons.

And- the basic point is still :: the more chargers in the wild, by whatever flavor, makes my investment in a EV more useful. I may like SC better than Destination due to speed, but both have value.

 

[AZ Desert Driver]

I see a whole slew of charging options in San Diego:
View attachment 172982

Any chance you'd be going to the zoo?

This PlugShare system hints that 1) you can see if a station is busy and choose another one, 1a) that you can reserve a spot, 2) that there is a huge infrastructure already in-place, and 3) that some home systems offer up their chargers to the public.
Do Tesla's have an ability to reserve space on the SC network? Can PlugShare outlets be seen while on the road by the Tesla software?
If these high rate chargers exist in quantity and distribution, then why does Tesla need to invest in a parallel network?

 

[SpiceWare]

If these high rate chargers exist in quantity and distribution, then why does Tesla need to invest in a parallel network?

I'm not familiar with how all that works, but what I do know is the Superchargers will charge up a Tesla significantly faster than any of the other currently available chargers. While you're on the road you want to continue on your trip as fast as possible. When your spending a day a the zoo, it doesn't matter if it takes a good part of the day to fill up.

From Tesla's Supercharger page:

Tesla Superchargers provide 170 miles of range in as little as 30 minutes.

In contrast, the plugs at the San Diego Zoo are 5Kw (24A @ 204V) which is half what a NEMA 14-50 provides (10 kW). The NEMA 14-50 charges at 29 miles per hour (click on Adaptor Guide in the Outlet Charging section of Tesla's page about charging), so you'd get about 14 miles per hour while walking aroung the zoo.

 

[AZ Desert Driver]

There are "high power stations" in the plugshare system. They seem to equate to Supercharger velocity of fill (not just low rate Zoo specials)
The advantage of the SC network is to provide range-anxiety removed travel everywhere, and it is worth investing in building out the system. But - if the system is ALREADY built out with high power systems, then the goal has been achieved. Just need to let the word out.

Now, I have not used these "high power" units, paid into them time or dollars. I've just located them on a map and they seem to be everywhere. Any Tesla drivers using them?

 

[AZ Desert Driver]

And another Tesla question from a fellow who does not have one yet.....Can a reservation be made at a SC? How does this task get done?

 

[stopcrazypp]

There are "high power stations" in the plugshare system. They seem to equate to Supercharger velocity of fill (not just low rate Zoo specials)
The advantage of the SC network is to provide range-anxiety removed travel everywhere, and it is worth investing in building out the system. But - if the system is ALREADY built out with high power systems, then the goal has been achieved. Just need to let the word out.

Now, I have not used these "high power" units, paid into them time or dollars. I've just located them on a map and they seem to be everywhere. Any Tesla drivers using them?

The higher power stations are not equivalent to superchargers. They are limited to 50kW (~150 miles of range per hour), while superchargers can go up to 120kW (170 miles in 30 minutes). You can use the CHAdeMO chargers if you buy the $450 adapter:
Tesla — CHAdeMO Adapter

And another Tesla question from a fellow who does not have one yet.....Can a reservation be made at a SC? How does this task get done?

There is no reservation system right now, but there are negatives to setting up one. For example, if someone reserves and is a no show, that will lock up that charger unnecessarily. Also, there needs to be some sort of access control (which so far superchargers supposedly don't have; the access is provided on the car side, not the charger side).

 

[ikjadoon]

He isn't saying he has to buy food to get a charge. There are tons of public chargers around. He is saying if he buys food, there is a complimentary charge included.

Have you been following the post chain here?

If I drive my car to an area where there are 15 destination chargers, and only 2 or 3 of them are at any publicly accessible space, then they don't have a material effect on helping me have a place to charge my car. You may be interested to know that nation-wide, the majority of destination chargers are at hotels. So unless you are actually staying at one of them, then no, they don't materially contribute to soothing range anxiety because you cannot use them.

As an example, consider this: I live in the LA area, so suppose I decided to drive down to San Diego for a day trip. San Diego is my destination. Now, guess how many of the destination chargers in San Diego are at hotels? All but one. So on my day trip to my destination, just how many charging stations do I have access to besides the supercharger? ONE. ONE destination charger in the entirety of the San Diego metropolitan area is available to me on my day trip down there.

How exactly does that help reduce my 'range anxiety'?

Destination chargers are easy for Tesla and the numbers look impressive, but they do NOT help owners to the degree that those numbers would suggest.

 

[cpa]

And another Tesla question from a fellow who does not have one yet.....Can a reservation be made at a SC? How does this task get done?

As of today, at SC it is first-come-first served. There are no plans that I have heard to have reserved spots.

As far as "other fast charge" locations, those are generally CHAdeMO and (1) you need to purchase the adapter in order to use them; (2) I believe that their maximum charge rate is at 50A (but someone with better knowledge will be able to confirm or refute this.) At about 30% share of charge, Superchargers start charging at 100A or more and taper downwards. I believe the 50A threshold is somewhere around 75% share of charge, but this is just from recollection.

An easy rule of thumb as it pertains to charging your EV: The power needed to recharge your battery is inversely related to your length of time at the location. A stop on a 500-mile drive will want fast charging; a stop for a day at the zoo can get by with 30A charging for 6-7 hours. Airport parking for several days would only require a 110V/15A level 1.

 

[ikjadoon]

There is no reservation system right now, but there are negatives to setting up one. For example, if someone reserves and is a no show, that will lock up that charger unnecessarily. Also, there needs to be some sort of access control (which so far superchargers supposedly don't have; the access is provided on the car side, not the charger side).

I think it's akin to what restaurants do. If you start missing too many reservations, they stop giving them to you. In Tesla's case, I think (after a certain limit), they start fining users after they miss a reservation.

Access control: well, I would assume you would reserve it on your car, so it would need to broadcast to other Tesla vehicles some unique identifier you have.

 

[stopcrazypp]

I think it's akin to what restaurants do. If you start missing too many reservations, they stop giving them to you. In Tesla's case, I think (after a certain limit), they start fining users after they miss a reservation.

The first suggestion works, but the second suggestion gets into the payment system issue, where it may make more sense to implement pay per use or some other idea like a parking fine. I don't think a reservation system would help congestion anyways (although it gives more peace of mind). Just having charger availability shown in the car would go a long way for peace of mind (Elon mentioned Tesla will have something like this in the near future).

Access control: well, I would assume you would reserve it on your car, so it would need to broadcast to other Tesla vehicles some unique identifier you have.

Tesla would have to make every car go through an access control system before allowing charging. Not impossible, but it would be much easier to implement if it is just controlled on the charger side (as with all other charger networks). Also, every car would need network access (wouldn't work well in areas with no signal).

Although to be fair, the pay-per-use schemes suggested would hit similar issues (but at least billing doesn't have to happen in real time; the car can record the amount of kWh or time and then send the information as a batch when connectivity is established).