Model 3 Track Day: Laguna Seca

[mattcrowley]

Also stability control eats brakes as well, especially rears. I wonder how much that came into play.

Yea, this was a slight issue on certain braking situations. The traction, e-braking, and regen handling was a little tricky, since I didn't really know what/when the traction or e-brake was going to kick in. At turn 11, when @OppositeLock passed me (Lotus), the car saw his car braking hard and the car broke even harder than I was pressing (collision avoidance kicked in). As a track driver, I need the control here and having the car hit the brakes harder than I was expecting wasn't helpful.

t’s as heavy as an E90 M3. Are the Model 3 brakes anywhere near as big? I’d imagine it was designed with regen in mind and not Laguna Seca which is a brake heavy track.

Yea, the Model 3 brakes are clearly designed for regen in mind and not really ever needing to use the brakes a lot, unless needed for emergency braking. This is perfectly fine. The car is a great design. Obviously, this car needs/needed performance braking solution (pads, rotors, higher temp fluid)...I just did this for fun and it was completely last minute, so this was more about 'let's see what happens...' than 'ok...I am going to beat my fastest time.'

How is the steering feel on track? I’ve heard the ratio is pretty quick. Like video game controller quick, 1.5 turns each way?. How is the feedback at the limit? GT4 is probably an unfair comparison, but can you give us a report with that as point of reference? Can you steer with the throttle?

Steering was ok. It does feel more like you are driving Forza, but it is fine. I had a good handle on the line and wet/muddy road conditions. I had a good feeling of entering and exiting a turn at speed. Under heavy braking...the car didn't move side-to-side or lift too much in the rear (my GT4 likes to be tail happy under heavy braking). Trail braking or throttle steering was hindered with traction control...so it would be good to try that next time.

 

[mattcrowley]

@mattcrowley, I took your data and put this vis together. (Click for full size.) Fantastic consistency over 9 laps. Any interesting spots you'd like to describe?

View attachment 284638

OMG, this is awesome! Thanks for spending the time to make these!

The data was generated with RaceChrono Pro app and a Samsung Galaxy S8+ sitting in the charging area in the center console. GPS data isn't always the best with phones and these apps, so speed and the line are a little off here and there. But, still cool to generally see how the high level data looks. I have a BT ODB adapter to gather more car data...but the Model 3 doesn't support OBD. I also have a BT GPS pod, but didn't really care to use it on the first session...too busy just waking up at 4:45am in the morning to drive to Laguna Seca / Supercharge in Salinas / Sign-in / chat with people / Driver Meeting / Group Driver Meeting / check air pressure...session starts.

 

[McRat]

So you cannot deactivate the SC? Many EVs uses their brakes to mimic traction control even with SC off since it's a open diff.

You can feel this on tight corner exits if you try to induce a little oversteer and it bogs for an instant. Best course is to practice energy conservation on the exits and be gentle with the application of throttle until the car is nearly straight.

 

[DIL]

Super! I've done the corkscrew myself and it's the true test of balanced handling. Looks like your Model 3 handled it quite well!

 

[DIL]

Famous corkscrew video: "The Pass"

 

[Snow Drift]

So you cannot deactivate the SC? Many EVs uses their brakes to mimic traction control even with SC off since it's a open diff.

You can feel this on tight corner exits if you try to induce a little oversteer and it bogs for an instant. Best course is to practice energy conservation on the exits and be gentle with the application of throttle until the car is nearly straight.

The only way to temporarily deactivate SC, without pulling a fuse, is to turn ON "Slip Start." This will allow the tires to spin w/o reducing engine power, or braking the wheel...however, it turns off above 50 mph. It is designed to get you out of snow, mud or sand.

 

[Daniel in SD]

I know it's very unlikely but it would be nice if Tesla were to make the performance Model 3 more than a muscle car. Bigger radiator (maybe with a bigger opening), bigger brakes, limited slip differential, and stability control that turns off seems like all it would need.

 

[mkspeedr]

Famous corkscrew video: "The Pass"

Still bitter about that pass. I was at the corkscrew watching that live. He left the track - all 4 wheels. I am so bitter...

 

[Dr. J]

Here is the video.

"Please stop!"
At 1:34:

 

[LCR1]

Famous corkscrew video: "The Pass"

Kind of like the Rossi- Stoner- Marquez pass in the cork screw

 

[EV_enthu_jp]

Regarding to the regen, I believe we can't expect max efficiency from the current RWD Model 3 since the most braking power comes from the front wheels.

I think the brake pads on the rear wheels were not in trouble.

 

[sreams]

I know it's very unlikely but it would be nice if Tesla were to make the performance Model 3 more than a muscle car. Bigger radiator (maybe with a bigger opening), bigger brakes, limited slip differential, and stability control that turns off seems like all it would need.

So far, it's looking like a bigger radiator or opening may not be needed. The other stuff, yes.

 

[McRat]

Regarding to the regen, I believe we can't expect max efficiency from the current RWD Model 3 since the most braking power comes from the front wheels.

I think the brake pads on the rear wheels were not in trouble.

Most the time you see damage to the rear rotors is when you track a car that has stability control. The back brakes are used to steer the car like a tractor.

 

[MP3Mike]

Yea, this was a slight issue on certain braking situations. The traction, e-braking, and regen handling was a little tricky, since I didn't really know what/when the traction or e-brake was going to kick in. At turn 11, when @OppositeLock passed me (Lotus), the car saw his car braking hard and the car broke even harder than I was pressing (collision avoidance kicked in). As a track driver, I need the control here and having the car hit the brakes harder than I was expecting wasn't helpful.

You could always disable AEB for the drive so that it doesn't mess with your braking. Though according to the copy of the manual I have AEB only works between 7 and 50 MPH, and you were going faster than that so the AEB shouldn't have kicked in.

 

[sreams]

You could always disable AEB for the drive so that it doesn't mess with your braking. Though according to the copy of the manual I have AEB only works between 7 and 50 MPH, and you were going faster than that so the AEB shouldn't have kicked in.

Actually... Turn 11 at Laguna Seca is typically taken at under 50mph.

 

[MP3Mike]

Actually... Turn 11 at Laguna Seca is typically taken at under 50mph.

I was looking at the speed he was going in the video when the breaking event happened. It looked like he was going 70 and the breaking event brought him down to 50... (Take a look at about 10 minutes in to the video...)

 

[arnis]

Keep googling stuff and you might actually learn something. However don't just copy and paste the first blog post you see. It's making you look (insert word choice)

I think I've never done that. I've never googled. Thanks...

Also why do you have a picture of the coolant light, transmission light, catalytic converter light and brake light from a BMW/ Mini? None of which are applicable to the situation and don't appear on the tesla.

Did you read? Because these indicators light up before things get nasty. Which, as far as I read in this thread, did not.
Model S/X induction motors are known to overheat (rotor). Battery can do the same. Both are cooled by coolant. It would be nice to have a light for that. Not just power limit and guess game.
Brakes did overheat catastrophically, as a fact. But there was no light. Why not? It doesn't cost a dime. 100-500 man hours of coding.
Brake pads "ran out". There was no warning. Why? This warning lights up on BMW (and many others) before you have problems with braking. That includes 100hp BMW's.
Due to worn brakes, brake fluid expansion tank ran dry without warning. Which is not ok. No message. Why? All vehicles, AFAIK, have that.
Looking on it from engineer's standpoint, I can easily conclude: that it is weak engineering. Too simple. I know Tesla tries to KISS. This is OK with visible stuff like dash. But not OK with tech stuff. High tech vehicle should be smart.
Not Smart like this

In case of high performance vehicle, it should definitely keep the brakes in mind.

Why preach about something that you have no idea about?

Why do you ask me? You told me I have no idea about this.


Ok, can anybody explain me, why on Earth many specialists here concluded, that this specific Model 3 that was on Laguna, should definitely use "high performance" brake fluid? What is the technical reason? No need to fix things that are not broken.
PS: brake fluid can also have virtual sensor with oil age counter as one of the parameters. Just to be safer.

Somebody was talking about E90 M3 brakes. 360mm front 350mm rear. Slightly larger than Model 3. Regular metal (aluminium center part). Not ceramic. Drilled. Well, making it technically, same size/smaller compared to Model3. And weaker. Pretty much worse than non-drilled. But it looks cool

 

[PhantomX]

I think I've never done that. I've never googled. Thanks...


Did you read? Because these indicators light up before things get nasty. Which, as far as I read in this thread, did not.
Model S/X induction motors are known to overheat (rotor). Battery can do the same. Both are cooled by coolant. It would be nice to have a light for that. Not just power limit and guess game.
Brakes did overheat catastrophically, as a fact. But there was no light. Why not? It doesn't cost a dime. 100-500 man hours of coding.
Brake pads "ran out". There was no warning. Why? This warning lights up on BMW (and many others) before you have problems with braking. That includes 100hp BMW's.
Due to worn brakes, brake fluid expansion tank ran dry without warning. Which is not ok. No message. Why? All vehicles, AFAIK, have that.
Looking on it from engineer's standpoint, I can easily conclude: that it is weak engineering. Too simple. I know Tesla tries to KISS. This is OK with visible stuff like dash. But not OK with tech stuff. High tech vehicle should be smart.
Not Smart like this

In case of high performance vehicle, it should definitely keep the brakes in mind.



Why do you ask me? You told me I have no idea about this.


Ok, can anybody explain me, why on Earth many specialists here concluded, that this specific Model 3 that was on Laguna, should definitely use "high performance" brake fluid? What is the technical reason? No need to fix things that are not broken.
PS: brake fluid can also have virtual sensor with oil age counter as one of the parameters. Just to be safer.

Somebody was talking about E90 M3 brakes. 360mm front 350mm rear. Slightly larger than Model 3. Regular metal (aluminium center part). Not ceramic. Drilled. Well, making it technically, same size/smaller compared to Model3. And weaker. Pretty much worse than non-drilled. But it looks cool

And I bet E90 M3 brake will also fade and quickly worn out if you keep the stock pads and brake fluids. There is a reason why people switch to aftermarket parts when going to tracks. Even F80 M3 folks upgrade to aftermarket pads when they are going to tracks on regular basis.

 

[arnis]

And I bet E90 M3 brake will also fade and quickly worn out if you keep the stock pads and brake fluids. There is a reason why people switch to aftermarket parts when going to tracks. Even F80 M3 folks upgrade to aftermarket pads when they are going to tracks on regular basis.

Bad bet (though it appears most here think exactly what you said).

Post #90 from @Oyinko

I can't believe you toasted your brakes after only few laps....

I've been at lagune seca 4 times with my BMW M235i and did about 80 laps with a best time of 1:52.

Even after 27'000 miles and 80 laps on a track, I'm still running the front stock brake pads and discs. According to the internal wear computer, the front pads have still 11'000 miles to go....

Now where is my prize?
Keep in mind M235i uses the same brake discs and pads as pretty much all 1-4 series BMW's (3-6 cylinder engines).


PS: Damn my rusty memory. Of course BMW has virtual sensors for brake pads. Not only temperature, thickness as well

 

[Doug_G]

Since they were able to give launches all night long at the new Roadster reveal at Hawthorne, I thought that was the assumption. In fact at the Jaguar I-Pace announcement weren't they making some noise about how their car wouldn't die like the Model S and X? I assume that was due to PM motors. Will be interesting to see what updates to the Model S and X get made this time around.

You can do lots of launches back-to-back in the Model S without a power limit. You're on the throttle for a few seconds (literally) and while you reset for the next run there's plenty of time for the car to cool down.

It's sustained power delivery that's the problem. On a race track you're spending most of your time at full throttle, occasionally hard on the brakes, and only mid-corner are you ever feathering the throttle.

This is clearly a situation where the permanent magnet motor has the advantage.