Model 3 Track Day: Laguna Seca

[PhantomX]

Bad bet (though it appears most here think exactly what you said).

Post #90 from @Oyinko

I can't believe you toasted your brakes after only few laps....

I've been at lagune seca 4 times with my BMW M235i and did about 80 laps with a best time of 1:52.

Even after 27'000 miles and 80 laps on a track, I'm still running the front stock brake pads and discs. According to the internal wear computer, the front pads have still 11'000 miles to go....

Now where is my prize?
Keep in mind M235i uses the same brake discs and pads as pretty much all 1-4 series BMW's (3-6 cylinder engines).


PS: Damn my rusty memory. Of course BMW has virtual sensors for brake pads. Not only temperature, thickness as well

I am surprised by the life shown on the M235i, but using stock pads on the track is quite unusual.
Take a look at this particular discussion as an example. People to change pads, and usually lines and fluids as well if they are going track their cars. This is for the F8X M3/M4's, a car that's more capable for track work than M235i.
RS29 vs PFC08 Pads

 

[insaneoctane]

So, did we collectively decide if the model 3 should have thrown a warning that the pads were gone? At the very least, wear indicators should have been squealing, right? Does the Model 3 monitor the wear in any way? While taking the model 3 to the track is outside the use case, accelerated brake wear is a valuable test to see how the M3 communicates this condition to the driver (or fails to)

 

[MP3Mike]

So, did we collectively decide if the model 3 should have thrown a warning that the pads were gone?

At a minimum there should have been a warning for low brake fluid, if the reservoir was really empty.

I did see a number of warnings flashing by on the screen, but couldn't read them. @mattcrowley were those tire pressure warnings or something? (I'm assuming you just don't have TMPS sensors on your aftermarket wheels.)

 

[arnis]

There are much more people who drive on track than those who modify the vehicle.
Week ago, I was pushing my 2001 old bimmer on ice lake for 3hours straight. Small diesel engine, 130 horses.
This can be called a track. Though different. Car goes sideways all the time at speeds 20-70mph.
No need to use the brakes but engine revving all the time. LSD overheat is a thing (likely happened with my friend, I have electronic one using brake pads).
Again, cheap-ass LSD with nothing measuring operation (GM/Opel). Waiting for problems.

Like I said, vehicle is a system. Model 3 RWD LR is a system out of balance. It can accelerate more than it can decelerate.
Usually, it is reversed, which is safer. In both ways, it should be monitored and reported to driver if it might bring problems; hence coolant hot indicator.

@mattcrowley
Would you speak up too? Or just click disagree with nothing to say. Exceptionally polite like majority of obdurate disagreers here.
I also asked about warnings. No answer.

At a minimum there should have been a warning for low brake fluid, if the reservoir was really empty.

How dare you question that? I got 11 dislikes for that

 

[MP3Mike]

How dare you question that? I got 11 dislikes for that

It sure looked empty in the picture, but the acceptable level may be lower than we can see. (But I have certainly seen failed fluid level sensors that never triggered a warning even after the reservoir was completely bone dry.)

I suspect your disagree ratings were more about saying that OEM brake pads should be just fine for track use, than anything about the brake fluid level.

I would be interested to know how the OEM pads would wear with the only difference being setting the regen to standard instead of low. (But I'm not sure he would want to go through the likely pad failure again.)

 

[arnis]

It looked empty.

From engineering side:
a) you can't measure fluid level if there is nothing to see (acceptable min level should be visible and a MIN line should be too). MIN can't be at the bottom of container as it will not determine, is level AT or BELOW acceptable minimum. There must be a way to determine, is the level below MIN or is it completely empty. That's why dipstick MIN is not at the tip of the dipstick itself.
b) brake fluid reservoir must handle level change (delta between max and min) of full brake pad wear. So when pads are replaced with 100% new pads, fluid filled to exactly MAX, when the pads are dead (no friction material left on all 8 pads) level should be no lower than MIN.

BTW, would like to see fluid sensor in the first place. And disconnecting sensor should trigger a warning.
PS: BMW screwed up before 1997-something. They had sensor logic as "open when adequate" and "closed when empty". Well, that didn't end up as planned They silently switched that. And nobody noticed. Except me, who started digging why there is a coding setting about brake fluid tank sensor logic that is related to production date

 

[LCR1]

I think I've never done that. I've never googled. Thanks...


Did you read? Because these indicators light up before things get nasty. Which, as far as I read in this thread, did not.
Model S/X induction motors are known to overheat (rotor). Battery can do the same. Both are cooled by coolant. It would be nice to have a light for that. Not just power limit and guess game.
Brakes did overheat catastrophically, as a fact. But there was no light. Why not? It doesn't cost a dime. 100-500 man hours of coding.
Brake pads "ran out". There was no warning. Why? This warning lights up on BMW (and many others) before you have problems with braking. That includes 100hp BMW's.
Due to worn brakes, brake fluid expansion tank ran dry without warning. Which is not ok. No message. Why? All vehicles, AFAIK, have that.
Looking on it from engineer's standpoint, I can easily conclude: that it is weak engineering. Too simple. I know Tesla tries to KISS. This is OK with visible stuff like dash. But not OK with tech stuff. High tech vehicle should be smart.
Not Smart like this

In case of high performance vehicle, it should definitely keep the brakes in mind.



Why do you ask me? You told me I have no idea about this.


Ok, can anybody explain me, why on Earth many specialists here concluded, that this specific Model 3 that was on Laguna, should definitely use "high performance" brake fluid? What is the technical reason? No need to fix things that are not broken.
PS: brake fluid can also have virtual sensor with oil age counter as one of the parameters. Just to be safer.

Somebody was talking about E90 M3 brakes. 360mm front 350mm rear. Slightly larger than Model 3. Regular metal (aluminium center part). Not ceramic. Drilled. Well, making it technically, same size/smaller compared to Model3. And weaker. Pretty much worse than non-drilled. But it looks cool

Why would a tesla have a catalytic converter light, or a transmission light? That's probably why those things didn't light up. The coolant didn't get hot enough and there are no brake pad sensors. In fact of all the brands I've owned or managed a fleet of, BMW is the only one that ever had brake pad sensors.

Your comment about drilled rotors weakening them is hilarious. You think every racing parts manufacturer on the planet makes drilled rotors that weaken the system because they look cool?

 

[emptyspaces]

Not sure if the low fluid level light is required by federal law: I do have a 2006 Freightliner (Mercedes) 3500C Sprinter which was subject to a recall for not having a low brake fluid warning as required by the feds. That may be due to its weight class or commercial status.

 

[arnis]

Your comment about drilled rotors weakening them is hilarious. You think every racing parts manufacturer on the planet makes drilled rotors that weaken the system because they look cool?

Yes. Welcome to science not marketing.

Why would a tesla have a catalytic converter light, or a transmission light?

Did I ever said it should? It should have lights for things that CAN overheat and fail. Motor/Inverter, Battery and Brakes overheat. God damn it - doesn't even have light for low windshield washer fluid (safety related) and as of right now, we have not even confirmed it has low brake fluid warning. That should be even higher on the list. And move to brake pad wear sensor later (at least virtual sensor would be nice). I bet if tire pressure sensors would be optional, it wouldn't even have those

. In fact of all the brands I've owned or managed a fleet of, BMW is the only one that ever had brake pad sensors.

You don't need to own vehicles to learn something about them.
brake pad sensor -bmw | eBay

Thanks for at least standing up. There is a dozen more hiding in the corner. Bring it on boys.

 

[arnis]

Not sure if the low fluid level light is required by federal law: I do have a 2006 Freightliner (Mercedes) 3500C Sprinter which was subject to a recall for not having a low brake fluid warning as required by the feds. That may be due to its weight class or commercial status.

If I was an unaware user, all would be fine. But as soon as you know, that vehicle will not tell you about imminent and total brake failure is going to happen at any moment now (leak due to whatever reason), that would definitely excite even a granny up.
Same with this one:

Imagine your ICE vehicle doesn't have that light. Imagine an oil leak due to random reason (oil change boy forgot to torque up the drain bolt). If you drive for one more minute, it will end up catastrophically. More-or-less safely for people. So that this one is even safer than missing indicators for brake failure.

EDIT: AFAIK law does require brake system warning light. Model 3 has that as the first light from left (indicator section). Searched that on Laguna race end, it did not light up.

 

[nvx1977]

grr, I needed my daily fix of model 3 news, which I usually go to google, type in "model 3" and then filter by last 24 hours. seems like all the news is around Model 3 on the track. Thanks OP for hogging the spotlight

 

[LCR1]

Yes. Welcome to science not marketing.

Did I ever said it should? It should have lights for things that CAN overheat and fail. Motor/Inverter, Battery and Brakes overheat. God damn it - doesn't even have light for low windshield washer fluid (safety related) and as of right now, we have not even confirmed it has low brake fluid warning. That should be even higher on the list. And move to brake pad wear sensor later (at least virtual sensor would be nice). I bet if tire pressure sensors would be optional, it wouldn't even have those


You don't need to own vehicles to learn something about them.
brake pad sensor -bmw | eBay

Thanks for at least standing up. There is a dozen more hiding in the corner. Bring it on boys.

You should totally send the video to brembo and tell them they've been building rotors on every racing motorcycle ever wrong and if you race with them they WILL fail. Except you know they don't really fail because they were designed that way and all.

Just because a light didn't come on doesn't me there isn't one. If the battery or motor didn't over heat why would a light come in. If there are no brake pad sensors on a car that by design doesn't use brakes all that often why would you add a maintenance item that you don't need? Temperature of the brakes? I've never had that even in my trucks towing 30k don't have brake temp sensors and those brake rotors will get north of 1,000* coming down the Rockies sometimes.

Keep it coming this is comedy gold. It really send that video to Brembo and tell them all their cars and bikes winning world championships aren't doing it right.

 

[Doug_G]

Most likely you boiled the brake fluid due to overheating. Once you do that your brakes are pretty useless. Bubbles in the lines are nice and compressible.

If you're going on track with pretty much any car, I'd strongly recommend flushing the brakes with DOT4 brake fluid (Not 5! It isn't compatible!). The DOT4 boils at a higher temperature.

Higher temperature compatible brake pads also a good idea. I don't know if they make them in a size that fits the Model 3 brakes, but Hawk DTC60 would do a good job. (Not a fan of HP+)

If the brakes still run very hot then brake ducts are probably going to be necessary. Larger discs will of course help but that's going to be a lot more expensive.

 

[Daniel in SD]

So, did we collectively decide if the model 3 should have thrown a warning that the pads were gone? At the very least, wear indicators should have been squealing, right? Does the Model 3 monitor the wear in any way? While taking the model 3 to the track is outside the use case, accelerated brake wear is a valuable test to see how the M3 communicates this condition to the driver (or fails to)

Seems like a good idea. It seems like if someone has regen set to low they could easily cook the brakes going to down a long grade. I see people who don't downshift do it all the time.
Arnis, I'll remove my dislike. For some reason I thought you were saying that it was unacceptable for the Model 3 not to have track ready brakes.

 

[Oyinko]

I am surprised by the life shown on the M235i, but using stock pads on the track is quite unusual.
Take a look at this particular discussion as an example. People to change pads, and usually lines and fluids as well if they are going track their cars. This is for the F8X M3/M4's, a car that's more capable for track work than M235i.
RS29 vs PFC08 Pads

The only modification I did was to change the brake lines to stainless steel to have more consistency and use high temperature brake fluids.

 

[arnis]

If there are no brake pad sensors on a car that by design doesn't use brakes all that often why would you add a maintenance item that you don't need?

Brake pad sensors are not independent maintenance items. They are replaced with pads. Always.
Brake pad sensors absolutely do not care what kind of vehicle they are mounted to and how much are the brakes used. They only care about when brake pads are worn and need to be replaced. Brake pads are consumables.

Temperature of the brakes? I've never had that even

Have you ever had 15" inch screen before? I have not. But I know cars that know brake temp and act accordingly. Though they do not display that (likely because those vehicles do not overheat, so no reason to show it). As Model 3 did overheat brake pads, why not a) have that virtual sensor and b) also show to driver to avoid problems. There is no reason not to besides ignorance. It's also OK for manufacturer to use appropriate pads.

Most likely you boiled the brake fluid due to overheating.

He did not. He lost the pads, not the braking power. OEM "non-performance" brake fluid worked marvellously as it cooked the pads, not visa-versa.

I'd strongly recommend flushing the brakes with DOT4 brake fluid

How dare you. You need to use "high performance brake fluid". With magic compounds that make your brakes brake better. Everybody here knows that now

You should totally send the video to brembo and tell them

Model 3 actually might have Brembo brakes (S/X does). Oh my god. Brembo made non-drilled non slotted brakes for Model 3. And holy cow they worked just fine. This is unheard of !!
Well we might get better braking performance. But this changes the whole machine from sporty to racing. Once again. Car is a system that should be in balance. Let's start with a thing that actually broke. We don't need more braking power. It will make things worse. We need quiet and longer-lasting braking system that can handle a track according to drivetrain. With holes or slots we get brakes that make more noise and/or wear down faster.

 

[seattlite2004]

Looks like a Bolt ran Laguna Seca at about 1:56.619. Wonder if the Bolt's brakes were worn down.

Edit: From the hybridcars.com article, the Bolt driver mentioned that he had some racing tires and used regular regen. No mention about worn brakes after his runs. Also, max speed for the bolt is 92 mph. Finally, "Kwan said his Bolt EV went into a reduced power mode after two or three laps of hard racing during practice runs presumably due to a buildup of heat in key components like the inverter, motor, or battery pack. He saw no evidence of thermal limiting during the official race lap itself, however."

Chevy Bolt Sets EV Production Record At Refuel, Beats Every Tesla From 2016 Event - Video
2017 REFUEL EV Race Sees New Track Records - HybridCars.com
REFUEL 2018 - Clean Power Motorsports Event | REFUEL TT COMPETITION RESULTS

 

[mongo]

But as soon as you know, that vehicle will not tell you about imminent and total brake failure is going to happen at any moment now (leak due to whatever reason), that would definitely excite even a granny up

It's called a 2002 GM truck. They used low grade brake lines for a couple model years. All seems fine till they blow out and create a waterfall of brake fluid. No recall on them. Also had a van that ruptured the brake booster, pushing the brakes dropped the engine vacuum and stalled the engine (automatic). 85 Escort blew its front brake hose, same van blew its rear brake line. No warning lights for those. Glad most of them had split systems. Pedal needed pumped, but could still stop.

Imagine your ICE vehicle doesn't have that light. Imagine an oil leak due to random reason (oil change boy forgot to torque up the drain bolt). If you drive for one more minute, it will end up catastrophically.

I get you are trying to make a point, but hyperbole doesn't help. Engines can run a while on no oil, and if it has hydraulic lifters, it will let you know it is unhappy.

FMVSS requirements
Brakes fluid level warning is required.
Pad wear is not required if the pads can be checked visually (tire removal is allowed for the check)
The system needs to hold enough fluid for full pad wear

Warning light for brakes is upper left corner per manual. Also per manual: if the brake warning appears, call them; and the pads have noise makers. Further, it says to not top off brake fluid. So I'm going with zero pads is still above the fluid level minimum/ warning level.

 

[arnis]

The only modification I did was to change the brake lines to stainless steel to have more consistency and use high temperature brake fluids.

The first one was preference of yours? I bet you can't say OEM installation is mushy garbage
And the second one just happened, because system was drained anyway and why not grab a bottle that has better numbers on it. Not because OEM fluid will boil for sure and you will crash and kill a kitten on the side of the road.

Just to make it clear to others, as here are some professionals that will definitely define that as "must have mods done before track racing" and throw few more bananas at me

 

[jerjozwik]

@mattcrowley given how your 3 LR performed, are you going to change up to the performance 3 when released or keep your current car?