Model 3 Trim Levels with competition

[gregincal]

I would actually rather expect it to go up. A shorter and overall smaller car won't allow for such a aerodynamic design, especially if you also want to make it look good and don't want to compromise too much on passanger adn cargo space. One of the reasons some EVs look so crappy is because they choose reduced drag over design and Elson said he doesn't want to make a car that doesn't look good.

And as others have said switching to steal will probably really put a dent into overall weight savings even when the car is smaller.

The current Mercedes Benz C class has the same Cd as the Model S and is the Model 3 target size, so it can be done. The Nissan Leaf's Cd is a fair bit worse.

 

[Spidy]

The current Mercedes Benz C class has the same Cd as the Model S and is the Model 3 target size, so it can be done. The Nissan Leaf's Cd is a fair bit worse.

It's just 30cm shoter while Elon said Model 3 would be 30% smaller which would be closer to 4m overall and not 4.6m

Also the C Class is 20cm narrower which is probably where it gets the advantage. I guess the Model S needet to be wider for the batteries. Thinking about it width might actually be where a Model 3 could get better values, but that obviously reduces the space for the batteries.

 

[Model 3]

... Elon said Model 3 would be 30% smaller ...

? Never heard anything but 20% smaller? Any link to where he has said 30% smaller?
Anyway - we don't know exactly where this 20% or 30% will be taken... 20%/30% smaller does not has to be 20%/30% shorter, but probably means 20%/30% lower volume.

I guess the Model S needet to be wider for the batteries.

Why? Any reason that the car should be shorter and wider for the batteries? My guess has been that they will have a longer wheelbase for the battery (and shorter overhang front/rear).

 

[gregincal]

? Never heard anything but 20% smaller? Any link to where he has said 30% smaller?
Anyway - we don't know exactly where this 20% or 30% will be taken... 20%/30% smaller does not has to be 20%/30% shorter, but probably means 20%/30% lower volume.

He definitely has only said 20% smaller, and it assumed to be footprint area or volume since at least once he clarified it by saying "think BMW 3 series size".

 

[dgpcolorado]

I would actually rather expect it to go up. A shorter and overall smaller car won't allow for such a aerodynamic design, especially if you also want to make it look good and don't want to compromise too much on passanger adn cargo space. One of the reasons some EVs look so crappy is because they choose reduced drag over design and Elson said he doesn't want to make a car that doesn't look good.

And as others have said switching to steal will probably really put a dent into overall weight savings even when the car is smaller.

The Cd could go up and a shorter car will make keeping a low Cd more difficult. But it can be done, as others have said.

My assumption — and that's all it is — is that a 20% smaller car will be proportionally narrower and that ought to lead to a lower frontal area. I am hoping that Tesla will shoot for a Cd at least as good at the S. If the Cd was the same as the Model S then the reduced frontal area would lead to a reduction in drag by that difference, whatever it is. If neither of those things is true, for reasons you suggest, then the 15% increase in efficiency that is being speculated about might not happen.

I suppose there are other places to gain efficiency with the motor and gearing chosen. But smaller car = reduced drag/rolling resistance is my guess for the biggest efficiency savings. I'll be interested to see what the real numbers turn out to be.

 

[igotzzoom]

Model ≡ [WHISKEY ALPHA GOLF] Specifications

Width 74"
Length 190"
Height 56"
Wheelbase 114"
Curb Weight 3,700 lbs

Model ≡ 60 -- RWD*, 300 HP, 300 lb-ft Torque, 0-60 5.5 seconds, 225-250 miles EPA rated range

Model ≡ 60D -- AWD, 380 HP, 400 lb-ft Torque, 0-60 4.9 seconds, 230-260 miles EPA rated range

Model ≡ 85D -- AWD, 400 HP, 400 lb-ft Torque, 0-60 3.7 seconds, 255-285 miles EPA rated range

Model ≡ 100D -- AWD, 400 HP, 450 lb-ft Torque, 0-60 3.2 seconds, 300-335 miles EPA rated range

Model ≡ P135D -- AWD, 600 HP, 800 lb-ft Torque, 0-60 2.5 seconds, 405-450 miles EPA rated range

* I strongly suspect there will be no single motor, RWD version of Tesla Model ≡ at all.

I think 190" long is too close to the size of the S. I think it will be closer to 180-185. If the "base" model is 250-ish HP, 6.0 0-60, 250 mi range for $35k, I'd be perfectly happy with that. However, for not too much more, if I could get 400 hp, 4.5 0-60 and 300 range, I could be tempted.

 

[Red Sage]

Today's BMW 3-Series is larger than most of the 5-Series that were produced prior to 2012, and many 7-Series that were built before 1994. It isn't the tiny runabout that was an upsized version of the BMW 2002 forty years ago. The Tesla Model ≡ will be an American car and will have the appropriate stature to convey that it belongs in a position of market prominence.

 

[gregincal]

Today's BMW 3-Series is larger than most of the 5-Series that were produced prior to 2012, and many 7-Series that were built before 1994. It isn't the tiny runabout that was an upsized version of the BMW 2002 forty years ago. The Tesla Model ≡ will be an American car and will have the appropriate stature to convey that it belongs in a position of market prominence.

Yes, but it's 182", and as you point out that's larger than it's ever been before. 190" is a totally different category and no longer competes. I'm really looking forward to the Model 3, but if they made another 190" luxo barge like the Model S it would be a lost sale for me. No way they will make it that large.

 

[MartinAustin]

The current Mercedes Benz C class has the same Cd as the Model S

Are you really sure about that?

Car And Driver magazine did an independent test of those two cars at the same wind tunnel, and they definitely did not have the same Cd.

Perhaps you are confusing an independent test on identical equipment with the marketing figures released by the various manufacturers... who usually have their own wind tunnels, do their own measurements, and don't publish anything other than the measurements they claim to make.

Drag Queens: Aerodynamics Compared Car and Driver

I agree with your basic point though. The Model 3 will be a smaller car, and thus will not displace as much air as it travels along the road. You can guarantee it will have an amazing frontal Cd, as Tesla Motors clearly has some serious aerodynamics expertise.

 

[dsm363]

Today's BMW 3-Series is larger than most of the 5-Series that were produced prior to 2012, and many 7-Series that were built before 1994. It isn't the tiny runabout that was an upsized version of the BMW 2002 forty years ago. The Tesla Model ≡ will be an American car and will have the appropriate stature to convey that it belongs in a position of market prominence.

I seriously doubt there will be 4 battery pack versions of the Model 3 as you mentioned up thread. While the BMW ≡ series is bigger now, I don't think Tesla will make the Model 3 a 190" car.

 

[wallet.dat]

I seriously doubt there will be 4 battery pack versions of the Model 3 as you mentioned up thread. While the BMW ≡ series is bigger now, I don't think Tesla will make the Model 3 a 190" car.

I suspect that T≡sla will seek to minimize the number of Model ≡ variants, as they do now with the Model S. I'm thinking somewhere along the lines of the Goldilocks options: too cold, just right, and too hot.

 

[Red Sage]

Though it is true the BMW 3-Series sedan is around 183 inches long, and cars in the price range from Cadillac, AUDI, and Mercedes-Benz don't crest 185 inches, the 3-Series Gran Turismo is 190 inches long. I expect the Tesla Model ≡ to be slightly longer than those notchback sedans, because it will be a liftback like the Model S.

 

[gregincal]

Though it is true the BMW 3-Series sedan is around 183 inches long, and cars in the price range from Cadillac, AUDI, and Mercedes-Benz don't crest 185 inches, the 3-Series Gran Turismo is 190 inches long. I expect the Tesla Model ≡ to be slightly longer than those notchback sedans, because it will be a liftback like the Model S.

That doesn't make sense to me. Because it's a liftback I expect it to be slightly shorter (you get more storage room with less length). The 3 series GT is awful IMO.

 

[Red Sage]

It makes sense to be longer for the sake of utility and aerodynamics. And, as I've said before -- BMWs are ugly, and their mother dresses them funny. Doesn't change the fact that the 3-Series is the best selling model by a premium brand in the United States of America. Acura, Lexus, Infiniti, Mercedes-Benz, AUDI, Volvo, Jaguar, Cadillac, Buick, and everyone else who has even hinted at an attempt to 'steal' market share from the 3-Series has failed miserably. Some, even when they built acclaimed products that were measurably superior products.

THE COMPETITION for MODEL ≡
L_____W____H____WB_____VEHICLE
183 - 71 - 56 - 109 -- Cadillac ATS Sedan
183 - 71 - 57 - 111 -- BMW 3-Series Sedan
185 - 72 - 56 - 111 -- AUDI A4
185 - 71 - 57 - 112 -- Mercedes-Benz C-Class
190 - 72 - 59 - 115 -- BMW 3-Series Gran Turismo
189 - 72 - 57 - 112 -- Infiniti Q50
184 - 71 - 56 - 110 -- Lexus IS
193 - 72 - 57 - 111 -- Lexus ES
183 - 73 - 58 - 109 -- Volvo S60
190 - 73 - 57 - 109 -- Acura TLX

 

[gregincal]

We'll see when they release it, but I'm really don't think it's going to be as big as you think. The 3 series sells very well, but the GT not so much (I've seen a few 5 series GTs, but I'm not sure I've ever seen a single 3 series GT on the road). The Gran Turismo is based on the extended wheel base 3 series, which I don't think is even sold anywhere except China. I think if the Model 3 was 190" it would sell considerably less than if it is shorter. People who like the BMW 3 series (like me) just don't want a car that big. Personally I think the 3 series itself is getting a bit too big. If you want a big car, get the Model S.

 

[Red Sage]

It's like, a seven inch difference. That's it. Hardly enough to make a substantial difference in public parallel parking situations. You make it seem like the difference between a Corvette and a Miata, or a RAV4 and a Suburban. It's barely the difference between a LEAF and a 500e proportionally speaking.

 

[gregincal]

It's like, a seven inch difference. That's it. Hardly enough to make a substantial difference in public parallel parking situations. You make it seem like the difference between a Corvette and a Miata, or a RAV4 and a Suburban. It's barely the difference between a LEAF and a 500e proportionally speaking.

No, it's just that I would prefer a car under 180", like the 3 series used to be. The current BMW 3 series is a bit too big, 190" is way too big. I don't understand why you feel making it even bigger than the already larger than it has ever been 3 series is a good idea. A smaller car is going to handle better around curves.

 

[Twiglett]

No, it's just that I would prefer a car under 180", like the 3 series used to be. The current BMW 3 series is a bit too big, 190" is way too big. I don't understand why you feel making it even bigger than the already larger than it has ever been 3 series is a good idea. A smaller car is going to handle better around curves.

I would suspect that the M3 is going to be compared to the current model BMW/Audi etc so much more likely to be a similar size.

 

[Candleflame]

not to mention the fact that you cant fit them in any parking spaces... At least in Europe.

 

[Red Sage]

Seriously? The shortest BMW 3-Series of the past 25 years was 166" long. I suspect that was the ridiculously ugly -- even for a BMW -- 328ti that attempted in vain to distract buyers from the much prettier Acura Integra during the mid-nineties. For a brief period around 1992 the 3-Series coupes/convertibles were at 170". For a few years they were at 176" long to open the current millennium. But they have been no less than 179" long since 2007.

The 183" long sedan sold more units during 2014 than ever before. Both in the US and worldwide. And you expect me to believe those buyers can't find a parking space because of all the MINIs and 500s on the streets of Europe?

C'mon, MAN!