Model 3 v2

[bcsteeve]

The Model 3 can be your ONLY car. A Bolt and a Leaf cannot

Oh, come on. That's nonsense. Look, I get that you're a Tesla fan. Me too. Are you really finding it necessary to show who's the bigger fan? I love the company and the car, but I can be realistic. Of course a Leaf or Bolt can be someone's only car. Even the 80 mile Leaf is plenty of people's only car. 80 miles is enough for most daily use, and for longer use they just need to plan around charging. The Tesla needs that too! OK, the planning is EASIER in a Tesla, but that doesn't make it "impossible" to go somewhere in a lesser ranged EV or one with the same (or more) range that doesn't have access to the Tesla network. I'm fully with you that the Tesla network is superior... but now we're back to what words mean, and you chose "cannot" and "impossible".

You said the 3 wasn't "any better". Now that is laughable.

Well... perhaps I didn't express my meaning well. *I* am not saying the 3 isn't any better. I personally believe the 3 will be the best choice for the majority of people by a wide margin. My point was that Elon continues to remind the world it isn't as good as the S and he should be focusing on telling people it is better than the actual competition. Constantly "anti-selling" it is going to give people reason to look elsewhere. Particularly in non-US markets where the price difference can be considerable. Or even in the US when other manufacturers still qualify for credits that Tesla does not (eventually).

Finally, you posted that supercharger map. Which at first glance - and especially if you're only considering American interests - seems to suggest it is all encompassing. But ZOOM IN. There are many areas where an owner is unlikely to ever make use of a supercharger. I personally can only see using one twice, maybe four times in a year (Kelowna BC to Abbotsford BC is about the longest trip I ever make. And not often). If I were in a Leaf, I can still make that trip it just takes longer to charge. But by the exact same argument EV supporters say to ICE drivers... that's time i'm grabbing lunch anyway so who cares? If the car costs $10k less... $20k even (maybe). It is a serious consideration!

Look, we're on the same side, really. Maybe I was being nit-picky on wording and you just expect people to get what you mean (rather than say). Fair enough.

Bygones, etc.

 

[bcsteeve]

Well the idea in general is just to make EVs have mass acceptance. Building a car targeted/marketed towards a 3-series/A4 makes it more desirable at the $35k price point than building a car targeted/marketed towards economy cars while tacking on an EV premium. That's where I think the large automakers have failed in their EV strategy.

That's a good point. The risk is if they fall short. Had Elon focused on the best selling cars (let's say Civic) and just owned up to the EV premium, maybe its a slam dunk because it is clearly a superior car... and the price difference is just the EV and people (I think) can accept that. Maybe that makes people *feel* like they're getting premium for free? Comparing it to a BMW (which I've always hated, but I understand is considered "luxury") may result in people comparing on cost and forgetting the EV premium and just seeing shortfalls. Like the same comments we continually hear about the S. The S is marketed and classified as "ultra luxury", but anyone who's sat in one knows that's BS. It is an amazing car, but "luxury"? Not even close, really. But that's OK. It is an amazing value for the money due to tech, performance, etc. We're already seeing people say the 3's interior looks "cheap", and I think that's largely because it is being constantly and directly compared to a "luxury" brand.

"not as nice as that Beemer" doesn't sound as good as "way better than that Honda".

So I tend to agree with 206er that it *should* be compared to the Honda/Toyota's of the world. But the reality is they've chosen the BMW standoff, and you make a good point as to why that might be smart.

 

[206er]

We are a single car family and the Model 3 will be our only car. We've always wanted to transition to an ev, but haven't been able to afford even a new base Model S and still can't get over aesthetic and range issues with the Leaf and Bolt. Model 3 addresses all 3 of our concerns - price, appearance, and range - perfectly.

 

[Runt8]

Despite being marketed as a 3-series/A4 killer, I think that the plan with Model 3 has always been to get drivers like me who have always bought, and would otherwise continue to buy, Hondas, Toyotas, and VWs to instead opt for an excellent electric alternative.

I love the Model S, but can't imagine ever spending even $60k on a people mover, sexy as it might be. But a $35k Tesla with a likely $7500 tax credit that brings the price into loaded Civic territory? Yes, please. Even better if I can eventually purchase a software unlock that will allow the car to drive itself after regulatory issues have been fleshed out!

I definitely agree with this. My other option was a loaded Accord Hybrid at ~$37,000. With the federal and Colorado tax credits (assuming they work out), I'm getting what I consider a better vehicle (all electric, autopilot/self driving) for thousands less.

We are a single car family and the Model 3 will be our only car. We've always wanted to transition to an ev, but haven't been able to afford even a new base Model S and still can't get over aesthetic and and range issues with the Leaf and Bolt. Model 3 addresses all 3 of our concerns - price, appearance, and range - perfectly.

Exactly my thoughts.

 

[stopcrazypp]

That's a good point. The risk is if they fall short. Had Elon focused on the best selling cars (let's say Civic) and just owned up to the EV premium, maybe its a slam dunk because it is clearly a superior car... and the price difference is just the EV and people (I think) can accept that. Maybe that makes people *feel* like they're getting premium for free? Comparing it to a BMW (which I've always hated, but I understand is considered "luxury") may result in people comparing on cost and forgetting the EV premium and just seeing shortfalls. Like the same comments we continually hear about the S. The S is marketed and classified as "ultra luxury", but anyone who's sat in one knows that's BS. It is an amazing car, but "luxury"? Not even close, really. But that's OK. It is an amazing value for the money due to tech, performance, etc. We're already seeing people say the 3's interior looks "cheap", and I think that's largely because it is being constantly and directly compared to a "luxury" brand.

"not as nice as that Beemer" doesn't sound as good as "way better than that Honda".

So I tend to agree with 206er that it *should* be compared to the Honda/Toyota's of the world. But the reality is they've chosen the BMW standoff, and you make a good point as to why that might be smart.

The problem is it's not going to be way better than a Honda of the same price (that's impossible). A $35k Honda is going to be loaded to the gills in equipment with leather seating, and you can even get a larger car size or engine (like an Accord v6). A $35k BMW on the other hand is the lowest end model stripped down with vinyl seats. With the BMW comparison, maybe the interior fit and finish would be slightly worse in the Model 3, but the equipment levels, seating material, and specs would be similar (and perhaps better in some respects).

That's the same reason why the Model S comparison works so well. People may complain a bit about the interior quality, but for the most part the car sits well in the segment of cars that start ~$70k (Tesla compares to S-class). If Tesla marketed it as an Avalon competitor with a $35k EV premium, it's very likely to fail.

Marketing with "EV premium" simply doesn't work well because other than strong EV enthusiasts, the general market does not value the EV part at all (only value as far as money saved on gas). The major automakers seem think in terms of selling to the "EV market" so this strategy makes sense to them, but Tesla is trying to sell to the general market.

 

[Canuck]

besides, Surrey isn't on the coast either, if you want to get all uppity about it

Surrey isn't on the coast? Strange then that I go to beaches on the Pacific Ocean in Surrey close to my house...

Crescent Beach | City of Surrey

But my point was that we are in a different country, and it makes no sense to think we will get a Model 3 on the west coast of Canada at the same time as those on the west coast of the States.

Lol @ "in stock". No they aren't. I've called every Chevy dealer in BC and the answer was all the same - good luck until 2019 and I better have a deposit down because each dealer gets a few a year. Granted, that was 4 or 5 weeks ago so maybe something's changed, but some craigslist click bait for a non-dealer is hardly evidence otherwise.

The Craigs List add I posted is from Barnes Wheaten GM -- which is a GM Dealer:

2017 Chevrolet Bolt EV LT *IN STOCK*

But just like Surrey isn't on the Pacific Ocean, I guess Barnes Wheaten GM having a Bolt in stock is "hardly evidence" that they are on the dealer's lots here. The one that I see driving around my neighbourhood is probably a fake too.

You sure have some strange alternative facts going on there.

 

[bcsteeve]

Surrey isn't on the coast? Strange then that I go to beaches on the Pacific Ocean in Surrey close to my house...

You're right. I should have looked at a map before commenting. I grew up in the vicinity (but not right there) and my mental map had White Rock taking up the entire shore between Delta and the border. My bad.

But my point was that we are in a different country, and it makes no sense to think we will get a Model 3 on the west coast of Canada at the same time as those on the west coast of the States.

What do you mean it makes no sense when they explicitly said "North America" and not "States"? You really think I was mistaken to assume they meant what they said??

The Craigs List add I posted is from Barnes Wheaten GM -- which is a GM Dealer:

What are you looking at? The link clearly goes to an add for "Harry" and clicking HIS link takes you to his site, not Barnes Wheaten GM.

The one that I see driving around my neighbourhood is probably a fake too.

I didn't say they don't exist. I said you can't buy one. And maybe that changed in the last few weeks, as I said. I was told by the GM dealer here in Kelowna that each dealer in Canada was getting a maximum allotment of 4 for 2017 and 4 for 2018. Because that sounded like nonsense, I phoned pretty much every dealer in BC (including Barnes Wheaten) and none were available. That was late April, maybe beginning of May.

Update: I *just now* called "Harry". You're right, he is at Barnes Wheaten (why is that not listed on his ad or page?) and no, he doesn't actually have stock. And no, you can't test drive one. It has to be bought on faith, sight unseen. He says they are "very rare" and (his words) "mostly all are already purchased" (whatever that meant).

So no, not "alternative facts" so much as working with imperfect information, as are you.

 

[bcsteeve]

The problem is it's not going to be way better than a Honda of the same price (that's impossible). A $35k Honda is going to be loaded to the gills in equipment with leather seating, and you can even get a larger car size or engine (like an Accord v6).

I guess it comes down to perspective. I don't see leather seating and certainly not a V6 as somehow equating to "better".

You're probably right though. I'm not the guy they're trying to convince.

I don't think I've done well in the debate and I'm not making my points I'm trying to make, but I still somehow agree with 206er that the typical Model 3 buyer isn't coming from a BMW, but rather a Honda, Toyota, etc. With the 3, they're probably buying the most expensive car they've ever even considered owning.

But you make excellent points.

 

[Canuck]

What do you mean it makes no sense when they explicitly said "North America" and not "States"? You really think I was mistaken to assume they meant what they said??

Yes, you are mistaken. Here's what Tesla says:

When will my Model 3 be delivered?
Model 3 production is scheduled to begin in mid 2017. At this time, the delivery estimate for new reservations is mid 2018 or later, depending on country of delivery. Once production begins, we will begin deliveries in North America starting on the West Coast, moving east. As we continue to ramp production, we will begin deliveries in Europe, APAC and right-hand drive markets. As we get closer to production, we will have more details to share with you.

I don't know why you read this as saying everyone on the West Coast of North American will be getting their vehicles at the same time? It doesn't say that. It says they are "starting on the West Coast". That means they can start in California on the west coast, then move to Oregon, then to Washington, and finally to BC. Then once they have the west coast done, they can move east. That's well in keeping with what is said above. But even so, do we read this to mean they will be delivering to the west coast of Mexico? We need to also use common sense.

Canadian vehicles have to be configured differently than those in the States. So it doesn't make sense that we will get ours in BC when people get them in California, and this is all in keeping with what Tesla says above.

Update: I *just now* called "Harry". You're right, he is at Barnes Wheaten (why is that not listed on his ad or page?)

It is, right at the top of his ad:

2017 Chevrolet Bolt EV LT *IN STOCK*

Strange though that he doesn't have the one in stock that his ad clearly says "in stock". Why would a car dealer lie to us?

 

[stopcrazypp]

I guess it comes down to perspective. I don't see leather seating and certainly not a V6 as somehow equating to "better".

You're probably right though. I'm not the guy they're trying to convince.

I don't think I've done well in the debate and I'm not making my points I'm trying to make, but I still somehow agree with 206er that the typical Model 3 buyer isn't coming from a BMW, but rather a Honda, Toyota, etc. With the 3, they're probably buying the most expensive car they've ever even considered owning.

But you make excellent points.

Well we saw the same thing with the Model S too, a plenty of people came from much cheaper cars and the S is the most expensive car they ever bought. I match this too (Model 3 will be the most expensive car I have ever bought).

My point is the difference is Tesla's strategy allows them to not only capture that crowd, but also the ones coming from BMW, Mercedes, Porsche, Audi etc (which plenty did). However if you adopt the "EV premium" strategy, you have close to zero chance of capturing that crowd, other than the ones who were EV fans in the first place.

For example, how likely do you think someone considering a 320i would consider something like the Bolt or the Leaf if they were not an EV fan in the first place? Then for Model 3? I would venture to guess the chances for Model 3 is drastically higher, mainly because of how Tesla targets/positions the vehicle.

 

[bcsteeve]

Yup, you've convinced me.