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Model 3 vs. Model S Wars

Discussion in 'Model S' started by Hotlobstah, Aug 2, 2017.

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  1. Hotlobstah

    Hotlobstah Member

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    I'm seeing more and more of this on Reddit and TMC but what's with the "Model 3 vs Model S wars"? The differences are so glaringly obvious...is this some new way of trolling Tesla?
     
  2. Troy

    Troy Active Member

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    #2 Troy, Aug 2, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2017
    Yes, the differences are pretty obvious because when you look at the 75 kWh Model S and the Long Range Model 3, the Model 3 is obviously the better car, despite everything that Tesla says.
    • The Model 3 LR has 20% more range than the Model S 75
    • The Model 3 LR is 20% more efficient than the Model S 75
    • The Model 3 LR costs 20% less to charge than the Model S 75
    • The Model 3 LR battery degradation is 20% slower than the Model S 75
    • The Model 3 has more rear seat headroom than the Model S
    • The Model 3 has the newer battery technology
    • The Model 3 has a driver facing camera
    • The Model 3 center console has more storage space
    • The Model 3 has door pockets
    • The Model 3 is more aerodynamic
    • The Model 3 has a more modern design
    • The Model 3 costs less
    • The Model 3 is future proof but the Model S is not because Tesla will redesign the Model S to make it easier to manufacture which means current Model S cars will be locked to the current battery pack options. You won't be able to upgrade the battery.
    • The Model 3 LR is not about to be discontinued however the Model S 75 is. Tesla has already confirmed this. Buying a car that is about to be discontinued is not appealing to many buyers. The Model 3 75D is also likely to be discontinued when sales drop to almost zero soon.
    • The Model 3 has the more automated production line. Listen here to Elon confirming this. That means fewer parts are hand assembled compared to the Model S which means fewer manufacturing errors.
    • Model 3 LR resale value is not going to tank soon but the 75 kWh Model S is.
    75 kWh Model S sales will plummet but Tesla doesn't mind it because they will hit higher profit margins on the Model 3 than the Model S because the Model 3 production line is more automated and the car is much easier to produce. They need to completely redesign the Model S to make it easier to manufacture and they need a completely new Model S production line that is more automated.

    These things will take 3-4 years. In the meantime, they will just discontinue versions that don't sell well. In fact, I predicted they would discontinue the 75 before they did. See my message here from a few months ago. Here is a new prediction: They will discontinue the Model S 75D too.
     
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  3. sandpiper

    sandpiper Active Member

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    It's not so much of a prediction, as it pointing out something that's already happening. I'm sure you're aware, but some 85 packs have been showing up in 75s - likely using the 100 modules. I don't know how this could be anything other than a prelude to same thing that happened with the 60/75s. First all 75s will be software limited 85s with an OTA upgrade option. And then, at some point, the 75 is gone.
     
  4. Navsarin

    Navsarin SP100D

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    I agree with many of your points re: 75/75D except for the car being more aerodynamic and a more modern design. After 5 yrs on the road i and probably all My fellow S owners can safely say: The S is infact a thing of 'beauty' to look at! Regardless if it were an EV or not, they made an aesthetically beautiful vehicle :)

    While the 3 ...has its appeal being a modern EV. If it were an ICE car, it wouldn't hold up to most cars in its class. Ie. 3 series, A4, merc C, infinity G, Acura TLX, etc...small trunk space, flat angled front bumper, more hatchback than sporty. Not particularly fond of its shortened design over the S. Just personal opinion. I have 2 M3's on order as a second vehicles in the family. But I don't believe they will win any design awards lol.

    In addition this current version of the M3/M3LR will also be considered outdated within a few years. Hate to break it to you but Tesla cars change their product line offerings faster than I change socks. All new owners to Tesla better get used to the iPhone phenomenon...fast and new upgrades to market rendering previous 1-2 yr models outdated. Tesla is a tech/auto company...so virtually any model today will be considered outdated within a year. :)
     
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  5. Thorbjorn

    Thorbjorn Member

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    If the 3LR was avalible for all now, Tesla would not sell "any" S with the current config.
    The "only" reason people still buy it, is because most people cant get an 3 for a long time.

    The $25K jump from 3LR to S75 is insane when you thing about the fact that the S75 has 61 miles shorter range.
    Tesla need to improve range and update the interior on the S or its going to tank.
    Many things hint to this beeing done soon.
     
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  6. ZAKEEUS

    ZAKEEUS Member

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    I dont think the Model 3 will ever be hitting Model S profit margin numbers. It will obviously have a lot more sales.
     
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  7. Carl

    Carl Supporting Member

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    It's not only the 75. I was having fun comparing M3LR to S100D:

    - on a 6 hours drive, M3LR will have to charge six minutes more;
    - with the S100D, you get air suspension and AWD
    - luggage capacity of the S100D is double that of M3LR
    - as per @Troy's list, a lot of fields where M3LR seems superior on the other hand, even to S100D
    - last and not least: price of the S100D is double that of the M3LR :confused:

    I believe Tesla is going to have to reposition the MS if they want to keep sales at current levels in the next months, i.e. before M3 production is at full speed (after that moment, Tesla may not care too much about how many of the current model S's it sells).
     
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  8. Navsarin

    Navsarin SP100D

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    There is a post somewhere about M3LR compared to a 100D. Comparing apples to apples with identical features on the M3LR: awd , adj. suspension (if it had it), pano roof (if it had it) auto trunk, 21" continental sports/MSupersports, 4.1 sec, 335 miles range...The price of that M3LR comes to around 70% of the 100D with less screen, less overall cabin space (except headroom) and less cargo utility.

    Just want to ensure a proper comparison of features here. One cannot compare a mid range RWD bmw 328i to a top end awd 535xi in any meaningful way. Not even in the same league.

    The M3LR has its appeal as does the S100D. Both fantastic in their own right.

    Yes model S needs an interior design :)
     
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  9. Troy

    Troy Active Member

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    Yes, if anybody is predicting now that Tesla will completely discontinue the 75 kWh Model S, that's not much of a prediction because it's obvious. We agree on that. However, just to be clear, I predicted Tesla would discontinuing the 75 kWh Model S a few months before they said anything about discontinuing the Model S 75. See the date of my message here. I wrote that in March. Besides the 75 kWh, I also predicted Tesla would discontinue the 60 and 90 kWh versions before they did. See my messages here and here.
     
  10. Troy

    Troy Active Member

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    Model 3 drag coefficient: 0.23 (Source:Tesla.com/presskit)
    Model S drag coefficient: 0.24 (Source: Car and Drive Magazine)
     
  11. Hotlobstah

    Hotlobstah Member

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    #11 Hotlobstah, Aug 2, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2017
    Thanks for the hi jack guys. This isn't a "Model 3 vs. Model S" thread. Please stop.
     
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  12. Hotlobstah

    Hotlobstah Member

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    You start out by answering "Yes"(to my original question of "is this a new way to troll Tesla") then you proceed to cut and paste the "way too long" troll I was talking about:confused:. What's your motivation?
     
  13. sandpiper

    sandpiper Active Member

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    Okay fine... but to be interesting, your predictions need to be a little less obvious. It's not interesting to say that the sun will come up tomorrow, no matter how many times you might be right.

    I can predict that Tesla will discontinue the 100, put in a new interior, redo the exterior, offer new paint colors, support CCS and any number of things within say... 2 years. And I'll likely be 100% correct. But it's only interesting if I pin down a time frame and more details. If I predict that they will offer a 110 by October of this year, and I'm right then that's interesting.
     
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  14. Navsarin

    Navsarin SP100D

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  15. calisnow

    calisnow Active Member

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    what are you talking about? I don't even know what you mean by "wars" - debates? about what?
     
  16. calisnow

    calisnow Active Member

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    Did you read your own title? "Model 3 vs Model S wars" - You thought people would not start comparing cars in the thread and assume your initial question was the entire subject of the thread?
     
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  17. DrivingRockies

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    Why listed as a positive? Major negative in my book.
     
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  18. Troy

    Troy Active Member

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    #18 Troy, Aug 2, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2017
    @sandpiper, I added you to my ignore list for being manipulative. I wish you good luck.

    When I made those predictions, they were not obvious and people disagreed with me. The message is still here if people care to read. Somebody was suggesting Tesla would bring back the 70. It was not obvious at all they would discontinue the 75 soon. It was the opposite.

    Similarly, when I predicted Tesla would discontinue the 60 soon, people didn't agree with me either. Here is my message. In the previous message, the person says Tesla will continue to have a Model S at $60K range. That was actually the reason why I explained in detail why this would not happen and why they would get rid of the 60 soon.

    If others want to talk more about predictions, I recommend this thread: Prediction Thread - "You Called It". I don't always take the pro Model 3 side of predictions. For example, most people were expecting HUD, I predicted no HUD. Most people were expecting more than Bolt's 238 mi range with base version, I predicted 218 miles EPA. I have also recently started a predictions competition and I welcome any topics you think we should include. Check out my thread here: Tesla Predictions Competition. But of course, you must not be on my ignore list because otherwise, I won't see your messages.
     
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  19. spooky981

    spooky981 Member

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    I would agree that Tesla did a poor job of significantly differentiating the vehicles. The difference in size and the "premium" interior features unique to the S just don't justify the staggering price difference. I think they're going to see some serious cannibalization.
     
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  20. bob_p

    bob_p Active Member

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    If Tesla had introduced the Model 3 first and then the Model S, Tesla would have sold fewer Model S, because for many Model S (& X) owners, it was (by far) the most expensive car they had ever purchased - and they did that because the S was the only long range EV on the market.

    So it shouldn't be surprising that Model S sales will drop some, as customers find a car that's closer to what they are comfortable in paying for a new car.

    This really isn't any different from the other manufacturers - who see their lower ends vehicles with greater sales - though that doesn't stop them from producing their more expensive flagship models.

    What was surprising in the Model 3 announcement was that they were going to offer the PUP immediately - and at a reasonable price ($5K), including many of the features present in the Model S. And because Tesla plans to sell the Model 3 at higher volumes, that's a good thing for everyone.

    Tesla will clearly have to do something to provide more value to the Model S and X families. They could make FUSC (free unlimited lifetime supercharging) a permanent benefit for the S/X. They could offer a battery upgrade plan, so S/X owners had an affordable path to upgrading their cars to longer range, when newer battery packs are available. And, they are likely to introduce future new features first in the S/X, before including them in the 3/Y lines.

    Tesla does need to do something about this soon - or risk owner discontent - for the current S/X cars that risk losing value because of the perception that a fully loaded Model 3 provides longer range and comparable features - at a lower price than the S/X. And to avoid that, something like the battery upgrade plan could immediately help to protect the value of used S (and X) cars.
     
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