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I have a small garage and it makes it a lot easier to get around the car with them folded in. Also at work, the spots are tight, and I feel a little better about someone not hitting them when I see them tucked in.
Krugerrand
Meow
Agree. No folding mirrors required, perhaps an option. People need to remember the Model 3 is going to be a smaller car than the S so the need for mirrors to fold becomes less of an issue.
EVNow
Well-Known Member
The "$10k" saving is very subjective. Depends on a ton of things (miles you drive, discount rate, future oil prices).
BTW, TCO is not a new concept. You need to account for all things like insurance (higher for pricier vehicles) etc. But this kind of calculated decision is mostly made by businesses and not individuals. Individuals mostly make emotional decisions and justify that anyway they can (including TCO, if that helps).
BrianC
Member
If you click the "learn more" next to that claim it also says for a car that only does 20mpg and at 3.90 premium gas. It is currently around $2.00 per gallon in the Cleveland area for regular (you know, the kind 95% of people use to fill up).
IMO they need to do away with putting the "savings" into the price on the website. It just reminds me to shady car dealers trying to trick people into thinking they are getting a great "deal".
Can you guys explain to me why you think the Model 3 needs to compete with the BMW 3 Series, Audi A4 type of car?
As has always been the case, people buying EV's look at total cost of ownership. I think a 70D competes with a 3 Series, and Model 3 buyers are going to be Prius, Subaru, Civic/Accord type buyers. Take the Prius for example, I think it is pretty safe to assume a vast majority of Prius owners would love an EV if the price and range/capability proposition was compelling. The Model 3 should offer a better car for less money than a Prius, total cost (aka actual cost, real cost) considered. I think Prius buyers, and many Honda buyers, are making this more comprehensive, deliberate buying decision
It is not just a thought exercise, because if you are fighting for Prius buyers you can have 14" steel wheels, a fairly spartan interior, limited base options, etc.
It also matters for the drive axle. I always assumed the Model 3 would be front wheel drive....pictured a Honda Civic with a 50kwh battery basically.
As has always been the case, people buying EV's look at total cost of ownership. I think a 70D competes with a 3 Series, and Model 3 buyers are going to be Prius, Subaru, Civic/Accord type buyers. Take the Prius for example, I think it is pretty safe to assume a vast majority of Prius owners would love an EV if the price and range/capability proposition was compelling. The Model 3 should offer a better car for less money than a Prius, total cost (aka actual cost, real cost) considered. I think Prius buyers, and many Honda buyers, are making this more comprehensive, deliberate buying decision
It is not just a thought exercise, because if you are fighting for Prius buyers you can have 14" steel wheels, a fairly spartan interior, limited base options, etc.
It also matters for the drive axle. I always assumed the Model 3 would be front wheel drive....pictured a Honda Civic with a 50kwh battery basically.
LargeHamCollider
Battery cells != scalable
Of course I'm not claiming this is a new concept, and of course 10k is a ballpark figure... and this individual is getting emotional about the M3's TCO:tongue:
I'm always amazed at the optimism expressed on these threads. Tesla magic.
There are attractive hubcaps.
$35k with a 200 mile range is hard. With profit at least. It probably costs $60k for Tesla to make a 70RWD today. The margins listed are average and we all know those are propped up by options. So the cost needs to be 50% less. Even if the battery is 40% less because 30% from gigafactory and 10% because it is a 60 kwh batttery, the rest of the car needs to be 60% less.
60% less means smaller rims/tires. Cheaper thinner paint - if you can imagine. Smaller brakes. AND less features.
500k units does save cost but when they start, it won't be 500k units a year. They can't cash burn that much. They already burn cash pretty fast and a market pullback will make it hard to keep burning at the rate they do.
There are attractive hubcaps.
$35k with a 200 mile range is hard. With profit at least. It probably costs $60k for Tesla to make a 70RWD today. The margins listed are average and we all know those are propped up by options. So the cost needs to be 50% less. Even if the battery is 40% less because 30% from gigafactory and 10% because it is a 60 kwh batttery, the rest of the car needs to be 60% less.
60% less means smaller rims/tires. Cheaper thinner paint - if you can imagine. Smaller brakes. AND less features.
500k units does save cost but when they start, it won't be 500k units a year. They can't cash burn that much. They already burn cash pretty fast and a market pullback will make it hard to keep burning at the rate they do.
EVNow
Well-Known Member
I expect absolute base 3 to have little margin at $35k. This is similar to most models - the base has low margin. I doubt Nissan makes much money with the $28k base Leaf. But unlike Nissan Tesla has to generate positive cash flow with every sales. Average 3 price is likely $45k or higher. This is where Tesla makes money.
If we take base BMW 3 and subtract ICE drive train, add battery and EV drive train it will cost more than $35k. So, I think Tesla may not be able to match BMW or Audi in terms of trim features. But they can offer things they can't.
If we take base BMW 3 and subtract ICE drive train, add battery and EV drive train it will cost more than $35k. So, I think Tesla may not be able to match BMW or Audi in terms of trim features. But they can offer things they can't.
Well first of all, Tesla has stated numerous times that they expect the Model 3 to compete with the BMW 3 series, so we're not making it up out of thin air. So which do you think would sell better, a 35-45K car that competes with a 3 series or one that only competes with a Prius? There might be some people like you say and it would sell OK, but if it's a car people emotionally really want that's when it sells like hotcakes.
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Exactly. And since they will probably be selling about 10% of their cars at 35K and have an average selling price of more like 40-45K, that gives a bit more room for profit margins.
EVNow
Well-Known Member
There are all kinds of Prius buyers. Most initial buyers bought Prius of environmental benefits. Similar to initial buyers of Leaf. These are the ones likely to get 3.
The ones who bought Prius or Leaf to save money would be difficult to convert. At least initially - since they are not pioneers and will not take financial risks.
The ones who bought Prius or Leaf to save money would be difficult to convert. At least initially - since they are not pioneers and will not take financial risks.
InTheShadows
Active Member
Exactly. If I remember correctly the number one trade in for a Tesla Model S is a Prius. Can't find the reference though so my memory might be wrong.
This thread is worth a look though if you are interested in what we early adopters traded in. Personally we paid way more for our Tesla than any other car we ever bought. Even after 10 years ago I swore I would never buy a new car again.
New Owners: What was your last car? How much more was the MS than that car?
I would say because Tesla is probably hoping to get more pure ICE owners in the $35k range to jump ship. People that own Prii already understand the benefits of electric cars, but creating an affordable and attractive purely electric car will bring in more people. There are some people, including myself, that didn't do any TCO analysis when they bought their Tesla.
I don't agree that the 70D ($75k) competes with the 3 series ($35k). For one it is much larger (up to 20" longer, and 7" wider), which is more inline with the 5 series. After incentives the 70D is ~$52k, which is the base price for a 5 series. For a lot of people, even financing over 6yrs, the jump from $35k to $52k is substantial and car size alone is a big factor for a lot of people, both of which contribute to all the 3-series/C-class I see.
Total cost of ownership isn't always the best way to look at it because while in the long run it may be cheaper, it's the in your face cost that is what makes or breaks a purchase for a lot of people. If you finance $75k over 6 years @ 2%, you're looking at an $1100 payment, which is $300/mo more than a $55k loan. Even if you dumped the $7500 and gas savings directly into the loan, the payment doesn't go down to what it would be for $52k, it only shortens the life of the loan. Sure, you might save $350/mo in gas, which would make it a better deal, but if something bad happens, you can't save $300/mo by taking public transportation or carpooling... you're stuck with the payment.
ProphetM
Member
As Bangor Bob mentioned, alloy wheels are usually lighter, from less than a pound up to several pounds.
But besides that, even Corollas come with alloy wheels. And that's not new - our 2008 Toyota Matrix (a Corolla wagon) came with alloys. I looked just now and 2/3 of the current Corolla models come with alloys. Only the most basic models, $19k and under, come with steel wheels. Even 2 of the 4 Yaris models come with alloys. Only the base Camry comes with steel (alloys are optional), and the Sienna minivan is no longer available with steel wheels at all.
Alloys aren't just premium anymore - they're expected now, for everything but the most basic of rides. I'd be extremely surprised if any trim level of the 3 has steel wheels.
Personally I don't care all that much, but as an economy car driver I have come to appreciate alloys for the lighter weight and the fact that I don't have to deal with wheel covers. They break, they can be hard to put on properly, and if you lose one (which is pretty common) the OEMs are costly to replace.
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As a current owner of the special-edition 3 Hubcap Corolla, you make good points.
I doubt they will go hub caps, it was just on my "list of things they might do to save every last dollar before you can purchase upgrades"
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
I should point out the failures of the American car companies (GM, Chrysler, and almost Ford) was aggressive cost-cutting in a way that lowered perceived value. It took them a long time to climb out of that. While Tesla obviously will have to lower the amount of features, they will need to do it in a way that maintains the perception that a Tesla is a premium vehicle.
EVNow
Well-Known Member
What Tesla will do is to look Base BMW/Audi features and try to put most of that in base 3. A few differences are likely - esp. if the perceived value is low.
Also, as a challenger, Tesla has to do one up on BMW / Audi base in some ways. May be that large LCD is one - and some software features (with zero marginal cost ).
Also, as a challenger, Tesla has to do one up on BMW / Audi base in some ways. May be that large LCD is one - and some software features (with zero marginal cost ).
Couldn't one argue that the "one up" is the electric drive train with super charger access? As far as I know, There is simply no economical way for them to make a "better" car WITH the electric capabilities that is priced exactly the same at this time. Part of the value from the car is coming from the gas savings and reliability of the AC motor. (and intangible environmental impact)
Aside from the well known selling points (AC motors, all electrics, performance, better TCO, etc) one that I think many overlook but I don't know if any other car has the ability to legitimately precool and prewarm. Many cars can be fitted with autostart, which, if you leave the heat/AC on when you leave the car can get a bit of that experience. But you need to be within a certain range, not a smart idea to do that in a closed garage, etc, overall not a great solution. I'm sure many on these boards have a nest (or other smart thermostat) and enjoy never having to come home to a cold/hot house. It's amazing, and I can't wait to do the same thing with my car.
EVNow
Well-Known Member
Sure, there are things that can be highlighted that can attract buyers connected with evs. Question is how do you market these features that would be attractive to low end BMW/Audi buyers ?
Certainly better 0-60 timing would be one. Some of them might even be willing to do more than pay lip service to climate change issues. Is that a 500k cars a year market ?
BTW, SC access is only a USP vs other EVs. Apart from the free aspect of it (which many here argue should be removed for 3) it is not better than the existing gas refueling infrastructure - in terms of speed or coverage. It won't be for a long, long time.
Certainly better 0-60 timing would be one. Some of them might even be willing to do more than pay lip service to climate change issues. Is that a 500k cars a year market ?
BTW, SC access is only a USP vs other EVs. Apart from the free aspect of it (which many here argue should be removed for 3) it is not better than the existing gas refueling infrastructure - in terms of speed or coverage. It won't be for a long, long time.
