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Dazex

Member
Jan 7, 2019
14
9
SD
A subway is infinitely times more useful than that tunnel.
You’re missing the point actually. You have to understand the reason why Tesla came up with their boring tunnel concept in the first place. And it has to do with the state of the tech to bore a tunnel and the time and money it takes effectively do so. Then work the math around so the project could become possible.

How many subway tunnels LA build already and plan for construction for the near future? And what’s the cost for such endeavors?
 

Cheburashka

Active Member
Jan 29, 2018
2,513
3,630
Los Gatos, CA
You’re missing the point actually. You have to understand the reason why Tesla came up with their boring tunnel concept in the first place. And it has to do with the state of the tech to bore a tunnel and the time and money it takes effectively do so. Then work the math around so the project could become possible.

How many subway tunnels LA build already and plan for construction for the near future? And what’s the cost for such endeavors?

One doesn't have to build an actual tunnel to find out that building something which is narrower as well as less safe than whatever exists now will be cheaper.

If you build a tunnel for hamsters instead of humans, it will be even cheaper and faster to bore! Wow! Profit $$$!!
 

S4WRXTTCS

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2015
5,715
6,851
Snohomish, WA
One doesn't have to build an actual tunnel to find out that building something which is narrower as well as less safe than whatever exists now will be cheaper.

If you build a tunnel for hamsters instead of humans, it will be even cheaper and faster to bore! Wow! Profit $$$!!

The point of it is to lower the cost of boring tunnels, and to optimize tunnel efficiency through automation.

A subway is efficient because it allows a large amount of people to pass through a tunnel. The boring tunnel will be the same way, but just with cars.

Obviously there are challenges, but the entire point of this experiment is to test things out.

I'm not sure it's really going to pan out, but I think it's an interesting project.

Personally I wish someone would make tunnels for Bicycles so we can travel free of any of the hassle/danger of the surface street. It's not like we don't have pedal assist bikes now.
 

Tobyw

Member
Feb 19, 2018
52
14
Nj
Looks like they've paved the tunnel and plan on letting the cars use Autopilot through the tunnel instead of steering on that weird track and wheel setup. The previous setup didn't look particularly smooth as a passenger.

Seems kind of sketchy operating the vehicle manually at high velocity with such narrow margins on the side of the tunnel. Thread the needle! I wonder how fast Autopilot can do it.

Apparently they want to put new developments into trial operation as soon as they are useable.There appears to be quite a few ideas in the queue.
At some point, Elon is going to realize that he re-invented the subway.

Big differences with a subway, everyone has to stop for anyone to get on or off, and subways do not go door to door like a POV in a tunnel. Musk’s idea will have point to point times in line with our current road system only with no red lights and no other cars on the road.
 
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Cheburashka

Active Member
Jan 29, 2018
2,513
3,630
Los Gatos, CA
Apparently they want to put new developments into trial operation as soon as they are useable.There appears to be quite a few ideas in the queue.


Big differences with a subway, everyone has to stop for anyone to get on or off, and subways do not go door to door like a POV in a tunnel. Musk’s idea will have point to point times in line with our current road system only with no red lights and no other cars on the road.

Lmao, subways are actually useful since they have throughputs of thousands of people per hour.
 
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APotatoGod

Member
Jul 31, 2018
133
95
California
The guy mentioned AP would do 90 mph right now.

Sounded like he said about 90MPH on autopilot. Clearly this is still a work in progress....

My guess is the autopilot limits are currently unchanged, so autopilot refuses to go above 90MPH, just like it does normally. Not that it's incapable of going faster, but they just haven't gotten around to changing the software yet.

Lmao, subways are actually useful since they have throughputs of thousands of people per hour.

The tunnel could potentially handle thousands of people per hour too eventually, considering the cars can go much faster than the subway, and can follow each other closely. My very rough estimate indicates that even with cars being spaced out 30 feet apart (they could certainly be closer together than that with precise autopilot driving), going at 120 miles per hour, the tunnel could handle around 22,000 cars per hour. The main bottleneck initially will be the entrances and exits, but the tunnel itself can certainly handle a pretty high rate of vehicles passing through.
 
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neroden

Model S Owner and Frustrated Tesla Fan
Apr 25, 2011
14,676
63,885
Ithaca, NY, USA
Look, anyone who actually understands transportation throughput knows that you have higher capacity, and therefore lower costs of operation, with long trains on rails than with individual cars on rubber. It's not arguable.

So I wish Musk well in making tunnel-boring cheaper, but *whatever he does*, I can make a higher-capacity, cheaper-to-operate, and therefore *more profitable* system by removing the cars and putting trains in instead. I'm waiting for him to figure that out.

In fact, if he actually figures out how to make tunnel-boring cheaper, the most financially sound move is to underbid everyone else on subway projects. The fact that he hasn't done so is because he hasn't figured out how to make it cheaper yet.

The weird thing is, the overpriced part of subway projects is mostly not the tunnel boring. It's the utility relocation and the "cut and cover" construction, and occasionally the station mining (which is usually cut-and-cover) which balloon out of control. I don't think Musk has even realized that that's the problem...
 
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S4WRXTTCS

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2015
5,715
6,851
Snohomish, WA
Look, anyone who actually understands transportation throughput knows that you have higher capacity, and therefore lower costs of operation, with long trains on rails than with individual cars on rubber. It's not arguable.

Is there anyone really questioning that?

I don't see anyone trying to argue that it's going to be more efficient than densely packed trains during rush hour in some major city in Japan.

Instead it's simply about trying to merge the convenience of an automobile with some level of efficiency offered by trains. I don't think it's about matching or exceeding that.

I personally like train travel, and anytime I'm in Europe I jump at the chance to ride REAL trains.

But, it's just not the same in the US.

Our entire culture built around the automobile. The typical train or light rail system is an afterthought at best. Where it's limited areas services with limited hours of operation.

The only viable option I see in the US is to create separation between autonomous cars that organize themselves into pseudo trains on roads where only they're allowed on that road. Having them in a tunnel is simply an acceptance that there isn't anywhere else for them to go.
 
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HankLloydRight

No Roads
Supporting Member
Jan 18, 2014
13,068
11,317
Connecticut
Look, anyone who actually understands transportation throughput knows that you have higher capacity, and therefore lower costs of operation, with long trains on rails than with individual cars on rubber. It's not arguable.

So I wish Musk well in making tunnel-boring cheaper, but *whatever he does*, I can make a higher-capacity, cheaper-to-operate, and therefore *more profitable* system by removing the cars and putting trains in instead. I'm waiting for him to figure that out.

In fact, if he actually figures out how to make tunnel-boring cheaper, the most financially sound move is to underbid everyone else on subway projects. The fact that he hasn't done so is because he hasn't figured out how to make it cheaper yet.

The weird thing is, the overpriced part of subway projects is mostly not the tunnel boring. It's the utility relocation and the "cut and cover" construction, and occasionally the station mining (which is usually cut-and-cover) which balloon out of control. I don't think Musk has even realized that that's the problem...

I completely agree with everything you posted you here. As smart as Elon Musk is, he's blinded by his own brilliance.

Even if he can lower the cost of boring tunnels, that's just a small part of the entire equation. What about the cost of all the other infrastructure (as neroden pointed out), including all those elevator lift stations for cars? One-at-a-time? WTAF? Sure, getting from point A to point B will be fast, but there will be a line of cars on both ends to get into and out of the tunnel system. It will be a complete failure, unless they have ramps on both ends like they have on the one end of the existing tunnel. But that requires a lot of land space to make room for that.

But the biggest thing Elon doesn't get is -- Who is going to pay for this? The reason that subways work is that while they are phenomenally expensive to build and operate, that cost is divided up among millions of riders per day. What's the yearly throughput of the Boring Tunnels going to be? What's the total amortized development cost plus the ongoing operation, maintenance, labor, interest, and overhead costs. Divide those two to get a per-trip cost. Most people just aren't going to pay that much to save time on the highways. But people counter argue - but the Tesla Loop is going to take you exactly where you want to go, and not a centralized station stop. Bullocks. So that just increases the cost of the tunnels because you have a huge network of single-use tunnels (exponentially more expense) going from and to specific places, or a hub-and-spoke or ring-and-spur network that is even more complex and not direct routes.

Elon should just dig the cheapest tunnels, and let the transportation experts decide what to put in them. This is a problem we solved over a hundred years ago.
 
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