Canuck
Well-Known Member
True but remember that the killer to range with cold weather is that the air is denser so it takes more energy to drive through.
Not true. Old 2012 85 kWh battery was EPA 265 miles . New Tesla 75D is EPA 259 miles.
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Model S 75D Range Anxiety
- Thread starter Tribaltech
- Start date
True but remember that the killer to range with cold weather is that the air is denser so it takes more energy to drive through.
Not true. Old 2012 85 kWh battery was EPA 265 miles . New Tesla 75D is EPA 259 miles.
RogerHScott
Active Member
Get the new 60D, put in a 40A charger at your relatives' house, put the $9k difference between the 60 and the 75 away for a bit and
then do something really fun with the difference in price between a 75 and a 90. If you find the 60 giving you range anxiety (which I
doubt) then spend the $9k to upgrade to 75. If you haven't felt the need to do that after, say, two years, go wild with that $9k, too.
Keep in mind that you're hauling around all that extra battery weight (in the 90) for nothing most of the time you'd be driving it.
The bottom line here is that you don't have a 160 mile drive -- you only have an 80 mile drive. No problem for a 60. And the new
60 is such a good deal!
then do something really fun with the difference in price between a 75 and a 90. If you find the 60 giving you range anxiety (which I
doubt) then spend the $9k to upgrade to 75. If you haven't felt the need to do that after, say, two years, go wild with that $9k, too.
Keep in mind that you're hauling around all that extra battery weight (in the 90) for nothing most of the time you'd be driving it.
The bottom line here is that you don't have a 160 mile drive -- you only have an 80 mile drive. No problem for a 60. And the new
60 is such a good deal!
henderrj
Active Member
I'm curious why no one has suggested installing a Tesla high power wall connector at your family's house. It's a whole bunch cheaper than the difference between a 75 and a 90! In fact you could probably install it at ten relatives' houses and still have money in the bank.
I have a 140 mile trek that I do on weekends so 280 mile RT and I do mine in a 2015 70D. Oh yeah - I installed a plug at my destination. Cost me $50.
Like the last 2 posters said.
The EPA bashing that we see here is probably because of 21 in tires. I get EPA at 70-72 mph. My tires are nicely broken in and 19 inch. You might shudder to think I added air just last week when I got a warning. It was my first time in 25k miles and 18 months. I'm embarassed.
Obviously Michigan is a different beast. But come on. As a general rule, freezing temps hurt your traction (kill it if you have summer tires) and so you probably should slow down a bit. Been awhile since I lived in the North but I seem to remember cutting the speed a little bit when the air temps were really low.
Last point, the EPA under values aerodynamics and the refreshed S is a bit more aerodynamic.
Like the last 2 posters said.
The EPA bashing that we see here is probably because of 21 in tires. I get EPA at 70-72 mph. My tires are nicely broken in and 19 inch. You might shudder to think I added air just last week when I got a warning. It was my first time in 25k miles and 18 months. I'm embarassed.
Obviously Michigan is a different beast. But come on. As a general rule, freezing temps hurt your traction (kill it if you have summer tires) and so you probably should slow down a bit. Been awhile since I lived in the North but I seem to remember cutting the speed a little bit when the air temps were really low.
Last point, the EPA under values aerodynamics and the refreshed S is a bit more aerodynamic.
@Tribaltech this is good advice. Uncharacteristically, Tesla announced that this really good deal won't be quite as good on Tuesday when the 60D increases by $2000.
If you're doing 160 mile trips in Michigan, in the winter at 80mph then get a 90. Trust me on this. There is no debate. You would regret a 75.
There's nothing at all wrong with getting out on the highway on a cold, clear day to do 80 mph. I do it many times every winter. Even when you start with a warm battery the cold temps KILL range.
At -25C, running the barest amount of cabin heat to keep part of the windshield defrosted, at 60 mph, the range on my P85D drops from typical summer 257 miles to 170 miles. If you add cabin heat to the point where you're not freezing your backside off, you're looking at 150 miles to dead battery. Reduce it yet further if you start with a cold soaked battery. And further yet if you have snow accumulation on the roads.
Cold climate -> biggest battery you can afford. Don't worry about hauling around a few hundred extra pounds of cells. That has virtually no impact on range. And Elon / Tesla's comments that nobody would want more than a 100kwh battery might be fine in warm climates. I'd dearly love a 130 kwh battery.
Sorry for being negative. I've taken some 170 mile legs with my car in the dead of winter and... I learned a lot from the experience.
TL;DR -
In summary, those that have the 75 think the 75 is plenty; those that have the 90 think you need the 90. Welcome to TMC!
In summary, those that have the 75 think the 75 is plenty; those that have the 90 think you need the 90. Welcome to TMC!
Reasons I suggested 14-50 over HPWC:
- It is cheaper than the 90d upgrade, but still $500
- It isn't being used regularly.
- Outlet could be put anywhere and accessed via PROPER extension cord (if necessary).
- Could go 20a 240v also (NEMA 6-20) with Tesla adapter for even lower cost
TL;DR -
In summary, those that have the 75 think the 75 is plenty; those that have the 90 think you need the 90. Welcome to TMC!
And at least one who has an 85, and who does these sorts of trips regularly, and who DOES NOT think that 85 is plenty, and who is looking to go to a 100D when it's available.
And said person has learned the hard way that cold climates and long trips make for very unhappy families - who then curse you for buying a very expensive car, that you have to drive at below the speed limit and with cabin heat off, freezing everybody in the car.
And don't talk to me about using the seat heaters. Spouses and kids are not sympathetic to that sort of half solution.Trust me. Get a 90.
And install some sort of charging capability at your relative's house.
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We have a P85 that has about the same range as a 75D.
Based on our experience with a 2500 mile road trip in the summer, we're planning to get a 100D (if/when available) to make future long road trips easier. There were several hops between superchargers when we had to manage the energy more carefully by slowing down to stretch the charge far enough to make the next charger.
A couple of factors when looking at the rated range.
Our P85 was originally rated for 265 miles. We've lost 5% of the battery, reducing that to around 255. When driving on the SC network, we typically want to keep the charge between 10-90%, reducing the range another 20% to 205. And in normal driving conditions at typical highway speeds, we consume energy 30% faster than the rated range, reducing the effective range (for planning purposes) to 144. And if we anticipate strong headwinds or cold weather, we'll adjust the effective range downward even more.
And after many short road trips (350 to 600 miles) and one long road trip (2500 miles), these estimates have served us pretty well, helping us to project when we need to get extra charging at superchargers and when we may need to slow down between chargers.
Using our estimates, a 90D increases the effective range from 144 to 156 - and while that 12 miles may not sound like a lot - when trying to navigate the supercharger network, that difference could be significant in helping to maintain highway speeds.
And, assuming a 100D gets 340 miles of rated range, it would have an effective range of 181 miles - probably enough to eliminate energy management (slowing down) in most cases when travelling on the SC network.
Of course you can increase the range by slowing down (such as driving at the posted speed limit, which is typically slower than most of other highway traffic) and there may be other techniques you can use to stretch range further (such as driving manually, not using the cruise control, changing the air conditioner/heater settings, driving behind large vehicles, ...).
It is possible to take long distance trips with an S60 - and we've seen 60s stopped at the superchargers when we've been travelling. The difference between having an S60, 75D, 90D or 100D is not the ability to take the long distance trip - it's in how long those trips will take. The larger battery packs will allow driving at higher speeds and will have shorter charging times - both reducing the time required to take the trips.
But if almost all driving is local - and an S60 or 75D is all that's needed for most local trips - then you can save a lot of money by buying the battery pack size you need for most driving - and accept that the occasional road trips might take a little bit longer.
Based on our experience with a 2500 mile road trip in the summer, we're planning to get a 100D (if/when available) to make future long road trips easier. There were several hops between superchargers when we had to manage the energy more carefully by slowing down to stretch the charge far enough to make the next charger.
A couple of factors when looking at the rated range.
- Factors like wind, elevation, precipitation, heavy traffic (speed up/slow down) will all impact range (mostly decreasing the range)
- You want to avoid exhausting the battery, we typically try to keep the charge above 7-10% when reaching a charger
- Most charging is typically to 90% (or less), and charging above 100% frequently may affect battery life - and certainly takes much, much, much longer at superchargers
- Driving at typical highway speeds (75+) consumes more energy and reduces range
- Battery packs degrade over time, with most owners reporting degradation of about 5% and then stabilizing there
Our P85 was originally rated for 265 miles. We've lost 5% of the battery, reducing that to around 255. When driving on the SC network, we typically want to keep the charge between 10-90%, reducing the range another 20% to 205. And in normal driving conditions at typical highway speeds, we consume energy 30% faster than the rated range, reducing the effective range (for planning purposes) to 144. And if we anticipate strong headwinds or cold weather, we'll adjust the effective range downward even more.
And after many short road trips (350 to 600 miles) and one long road trip (2500 miles), these estimates have served us pretty well, helping us to project when we need to get extra charging at superchargers and when we may need to slow down between chargers.
Using our estimates, a 90D increases the effective range from 144 to 156 - and while that 12 miles may not sound like a lot - when trying to navigate the supercharger network, that difference could be significant in helping to maintain highway speeds.
And, assuming a 100D gets 340 miles of rated range, it would have an effective range of 181 miles - probably enough to eliminate energy management (slowing down) in most cases when travelling on the SC network.
Of course you can increase the range by slowing down (such as driving at the posted speed limit, which is typically slower than most of other highway traffic) and there may be other techniques you can use to stretch range further (such as driving manually, not using the cruise control, changing the air conditioner/heater settings, driving behind large vehicles, ...).
It is possible to take long distance trips with an S60 - and we've seen 60s stopped at the superchargers when we've been travelling. The difference between having an S60, 75D, 90D or 100D is not the ability to take the long distance trip - it's in how long those trips will take. The larger battery packs will allow driving at higher speeds and will have shorter charging times - both reducing the time required to take the trips.
But if almost all driving is local - and an S60 or 75D is all that's needed for most local trips - then you can save a lot of money by buying the battery pack size you need for most driving - and accept that the occasional road trips might take a little bit longer.
And that works until the first time you need to go to their home to pick something up or help with something. And so you don't have time to charge fully before returning.
Plus, if you're like me, you often leave at the end of the work day. So you arrive in the dark, in the frozen dead of winter, possibly in a snowstorm, to discover that a snowbank has piled up around the outlet, and that nobody has shoveled the area out because nobody who lives there needs to use that outlet. Or if the outlet is inside the house, you have to justify leaving the door open a crack so that you can feed an extension cable out the door while cold air blows in.
And so while the rest of the family heads in to warm up and open some bottles of wine, you're out in the dark and snow futzing around, shoveling out the area to get your car in close enough to the outlet to connect it. Meanwhile, in the warm house half of your relatives are rolling their eyes at what an idiot you are for having bought such an expensive and impractical car.
With all respect to our fellow owners in California who are saying that a 75 is fine... don't listen to them.
RogerHScott
Active Member
Between the two of those, which would know better the true feasibility of 75? Clearly this data is indicative.TL;DR -
In summary, those that have the 75 think the 75 is plenty; those that have the 90 think you need the 90. Welcome to TMC!
I would say it depends on where the 75 owners live and what they need to use it for. Don't get me wrong. The 75 is a great car, and the 60 is a great deal - but not for all circumstances. My circumstance is very similar to that of the OP. And my P85D only has mildly more range than the S75. I cannot imagine buying a 75 when a 90 was possible. Or a 100.
RogerHScott
Active Member
Btw, if you read the fine print on the charging unit (the one that travels with the car) it says NO EXTENSION CORDS. But who among
us hasn't ignored that?
us hasn't ignored that?
RogerHScott
Active Member
Obviously. The 75 is a somewhat more limited vehicle and is practical in a smaller range of circumstances. If you're concerned about range and are in a cold climate, then the difference between the two is huge.
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RogerHScott
Active Member
No, you missed my point. My point was that a 90 owner in Miami has no more insight into this issue than a 75 owner in Miami does,
so you can't only impugn the opinions of meteorologically-blessed 75 owners.
Ah... yes, I suppose I missed that point. And I can't disagree. Let me put it on the record that, while I love California, they have no understanding of the practical shortcomings of an EV in a really cold snowy climate. And I therefore impugn their opinions irrespective of what size of battery they have.
Ah... yes, I suppose I missed that point. And I can't disagree. Let me put it on the record that, while I love California, they have no understanding of the practical shortcomings of an EV in a really cold snowy climate. And I therefore impugn their opinions irrespective of what size of battery they have.
If you can't do 80 miles in a 75D I doubt even the extra 8-10KWh is going to help. Note the 90D only has around 85KWH at most. More typically 83KWH usable. The 75D actually has pretty close to the full 75KWH.
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