Model S 85D rated range (UK)

[vitesse]

Am I right in thinking the rated range for a new battery in an 85D would be 270 miles in the US because the EPA mielage formula is used? Does that mean the figure will be different for European cars where the NEDC formula is used?

I hope to check out a three year old used 85D that has done 70,000 miles and I would like to check the battery pack by comparing the 'new' rated range with that example's range. So EPA is 270 miles but I think the NEDC figure for 100% charge is 328 miles.

So basically will a UK car display EPA or NEDC mileage?

 

[IanMcL]

In the absence of any technical response, I can tell you that my May 2016 S 85D, fully charged, registers 257 miles.

In warm weather and careful driving, you get a decent return. Not so good in winter!

 

[arg]

my May 2016 S 85D, fully charged, registers 257 miles.

But that will be "typical" range, not "rated" range.

N. America cars have "Rated" (EPA, marginally optimistic for normal use) and "Ideal" (based on constant 55-mph, hugely optimistic)

EU cars have "Typical" (achievable in normal use on a long run at the speed limit) and "Rated" (NEDC, hopelessly optimistic).

You pick which of the two versions is displayed through a configuration setting. You can also get percentage charge level.

However, normally a car won't be charged to 100%, and comparing the mileage at less than 100% is subject to more variable factors. It's worth a quick look in case the car is seriously faulty, but doesn't readily give you a good idea of battery degradation - though to be honest, particularly on an '85, degradation isn't really something to look at on a used buy. Normally the degradation is negligible or in rare cases the battery is failing rapidly and will soon be dead. Obviously you don't want the lemon, but trying to pick between cars which show a tiny difference in fully charged range indication isn't sensible.

 

[vitesse]

I could have got the terminology wrong

I only want to check that the battery isn't abnormally degraded. so If at 100% @IanMcL 's battery is rated or whatever to 257 miles that sounds like it's the same as US cars (270 miles new and for an older car somewhere around 250). If it rates much lower than that I might have to point this out to the dealer and there might have to be some flexibility on price

 

[Beady3647]

I have a 65 plate P85D which has done 35K miles.

The highest figure I've had for a full charge is around 248 miles and that has slowly reduced to 241/242 miles.

 

[arg]

I only want to check that the battery isn't abnormally degraded. so If at 100% @IanMcL 's battery is rated or whatever to 257 miles that sounds like it's the same as US cars (270 miles new and for an older car somewhere around 250). If it rates much lower than that I might have to point this out to the dealer and there might have to be some flexibility on price

Just make sure you know what mode the display is in (most people use 'Typical' rather than 'Rated', but a dealer might switch to 'Rated' to make it look good for less well-informed buyers).

Also ensure comparing apples with apples - the 'as new' number is different on S85, P85, 85D, P85D etc.

 

[vitesse]

Just make sure you know what mode the display is in (most people use 'Typical' rather than 'Rated', but a dealer might switch to 'Rated' to make it look good for less well-informed buyers).

Also ensure comparing apples with apples - the 'as new' number is different on S85, P85, 85D, P85D etc.

I'm banking on the 'as new' number to be 270 for the standard 85D and to expect a figure of about 250. Is that correct?

 

[arg]

I'm banking on the 'as new' number to be 270 for the standard 85D and to expect a figure of about 250. Is that correct?

No. 270 was the EPA number, which a UK car won't show you (it has 'Typical' which is lower than EPA, or 'Rated' (NEDC) which is higher than EPA).

I don't know the exact starting figure for a UK-market 85D in 'Typical' mode: it's supposedly 328 NEDC, about 5% higher than my S85 at 312.

My S85 car was 245 Typical when new, so scaling that in proportion to the NEDC ranges gives you 258 Typical for an 85D, however @IanMcL seems to have almost that on a 2-year old car.

My car dropped from 245 when new to 240 miles at 1 year, 236 at 1.5 years but in winter, 239 at 3 years (I haven't done a full range charge recently).

From my numbers and what others report, on an 85 you can generally expect to lose a couple of percent in the first year or so, and rather more slowly thereafter, but there's at least a 1% variation in the numbers due to the conditions at the time. Comparing numbers across history also suffers from different software versions potentially giving different results (I don't _think_ they've deliberately fudged it to make old cars look better than reality, but I'd be hesitant about drawing conclusions based on very small differences).

With the '90 batteries, things seem a little different: the degradation is bigger, and there's been more than one version of the '90 pack (there was more than one '85 too, but the differences between B/C/D revisions seem minor - the 'A' revision was significantly different, having slower supercharging, but that was never sold in the UK).

 

[WannabeOwner]

Doesn't help in terms of evaluating what Typical or Rated might be ... but in case of interest for my 90 this is the graph over 3 years and 70+K miles

My reading is: a significant fall initially, as expected, then levelled off, then another fall (why?) then level since then.

 

[vitesse]

Your example should b e a reasonable model for the car we are looking at - similar mileage and age. You have 92% of what you started with. I was hoping for a couple of percent more but, whatever.

How did you produce this graph?

Doesn't help in terms of evaluating what Typical or Rated might be ... but in case of interest for my 90 this is the graph over 3 years and 70+K miles

View attachment 400113

My reading is: a significant fall initially, as expected, then levelled off, then another fall (why?) then level since then.

 

[WannabeOwner]

I was hoping for a couple of percent more but, whatever

You might get that, the 90 battery apparently has worse degradation than the 80 battery [chemistry]

How did you produce this graph?

TeslaFi - if you use my referral code to create an account (but not until you have the car ...) you get a month trial instead of 2 weeks, and I get $5 or somesuch if you subscribe.

 

[vitesse]

You might get that, the 90 battery apparently has worse degradation than the 80 battery [chemistry]



TeslaFi - if you use my referral code to create an account (but not until you have the car ...) you get a month trial instead of 2 weeks, and I get $5 or somesuch if you subscribe.

So no good for evaluating before I buy the car? I do know its VIN number and reg. though.

 

[WannabeOwner]

I do know its VIN number and reg. though.

Nope, you need the car to be available in your MyTesla account (to get the authorisation-token to give to TeslaFi for TeslaFi to be allowed to gather data on the car)

TeslaFi can only gather data from when you start using it, so [I think] makes sense to do that as soon as you get the car, but you won't be able to see previous history for the car. Sorry if I misled you on that point.

 

[boywonder]

I have an early 2016 S85D with 36k miles. Last week I charged to 100% during a long road trip and the range showed as 255 miles when full.

Generally when I charge to 90% I get approx 235 miles as the range shown.

 

[vitesse]

Thanks for everyone's help - there has been a changed of plan as I've decided to go for a 30,000 mile CPO 70D as the high mileage 85D was still not forthcoming after 3 weeks from the car supermarket dealer was advertising it. In the end I have gone for the comfort of the reset Tesla warranty over the extra power and range of the 85D. A 70D is still mighty fast and I think we can live with a roughly 10% reduced range. Hope I'm right!

 

[IanMcL]

Good luck. Enjoy.

 

[vitesse]

But that will be "typical" range, not "rated" range.

N. America cars have "Rated" (EPA, marginally optimistic for normal use) and "Ideal" (based on constant 55-mph, hugely optimistic)

EU cars have "Typical" (achievable in normal use on a long run at the speed limit) and "Rated" (NEDC, hopelessly optimistic).

You pick which of the two versions is displayed through a configuration setting. You can also get percentage charge level.

However, normally a car won't be charged to 100%, and comparing the mileage at less than 100% is subject to more variable factors. It's worth a quick look in case the car is seriously faulty, but doesn't readily give you a good idea of battery degradation - though to be honest, particularly on an '85, degradation isn't really something to look at on a used buy. Normally the degradation is negligible or in rare cases the battery is failing rapidly and will soon be dead. Obviously you don't want the lemon, but trying to pick between cars which show a tiny difference in fully charged range indication isn't sensible.

Aha - I have rediscoved this earlier thread of mine!

We now own a Tesla used (CPO) MS 70D instead of the higher mileage 85D that proved to be independent dealer vapourware.

I've not yet charged to 100% but at 90% the displayed range miles is exactly 200.

After using the api interface on the tesla-info site I got earlier today:

Charge level 79
Ideal range 175.84
Battery range 222.73
Est range 170.1
Usable battery 79
charge_limit_soc 90
charge_limit_soc_min 50
charge_limit_soc_max 100
charge_limit_soc_std 90

At the time of above the car's display showed 176 miles, so that must be what Tesla-info calls 'Ideal range'. That's the 200 miles at 90% charge I previously mentioned. But is that the same as what you described as 'Ideal' in US cars? I guess not? So I guess that's 'Typical'?

What Tesla-info calls 'Battery range' - the most optimistic figure - sounds like Rated (European NEDC).

Then there is 'Est range' - the least optimistic figure. Could that be calculated from the most recent driving and conditions (my wife's mixed traffic 19 miles early morning commute today)?

 

[arg]

I think tesla-info assumes a USA-spec car and is mis-labelling these.

So my guess is:

"Ideal 175.84" is actually Typical (and matches your on-screen 176).
"Battery Range 222.73" is actually "Rated NEDC" and as expected is very optimistic.
"Est range 170.1" is actually the estimate based on recent driving miles and is not a useful figure.

I don't know what other UK-spec 70D cars are showing, but my 2014 S85 when charged to 90% and set for "Typical" achieved 221 when brand new, 215 yesterday (it's in fact been fairly constant over the past couple of years), so your 200 for a 70D doesn't seem far out.

Do you know if yours is an actual '70' or a software-locked '75'?

 

[vitesse]

Thanks @arg - mine is a pre-facelift 70D and so it's a 'real' 70kWh battery. There is no extra 5kWh upgrade option as you would expect with a software-limited 75kWh battery in later 70D (and 60?) cars.

I'm actually reassured by this as that means the battery chemistry should be the more resilient earlier formula rather than the less-resilient chemistry related to 90kWh batteries.

 

[cezdoc]

...
Charge level 79
Ideal range 175.84
Battery range 222.73
Est range 170.1
Usable battery 79
charge_limit_soc 90
charge_limit_soc_min 50
charge_limit_soc_max 100
charge_limit_soc_std 90
...

I have a MS70 (not a locked 75) and a lot of these figures look familiar to me. I haven't tried checking on Tesla-info but this is my guess:
I set units to "Typical" rather than "Rated", and then flip to % to cross-check from time-to-time
Battery range 222.73 looks almost identical to what my car would display if charged to 100% (mine's currently around 221.1 based on extrapolating from 80/90% charges).
Note the ideal range figure = Battery range x 79%.
So your figures look like numbers you can find displayed on the dash/main screen. Extrapolating that theory the Est range is almost certainly based on your consumption over the last 5/15/30 miles (visible on the energy screen).

If my theory is correct I would expect the Ideal range, Battery range and Est range figures to change if you set units to Rated rather than Typical miles. Usable battery is probably used if the battery gets really cold and has a blue section displayed (mine's never got that cold, even in Aberdeen!).