Model S Accident/Fire

[blakegallagher]

Finally someone (else) broke the ice on this point. I got so much negative rep earlier in the thread when I pointed out how the stats shouldn't apply to Tesla, that it wasn't worth pushing the subject!

The right comparison is fire frequency for cars that are < 1 year old. US data sources don't break it out by age cohort, so we don't know. But intuitively it's very low. (unless you are a ferrari!) The 150k per year is for the entire US car fleet which averages 10-11 years old....

I give Tesla a free pass on the first one, statistically speaking 1 data point is only enough for chicken little.

If folks want to be educators, maybe better to focus on Tesla's design quality vs. shrugging it off using a bad statistic.

again this is assuming cars catch on fire at a much higher rate as they age. I am not sure this is true.

 

[Fr23shjive]

Wrong. What stats are saying is 1 gas car out of 1000 catches fire.
Tesla has 20.000 cars so its 1 out of 20.000. So its 20 times safer.
This is wrong.
It's 1 car out of 1000 cars DURING THE CARS LIFETIME. So let's say 10 years (car lifetime) and its being reasonable.
Put the equation to 1 year: this is statistically equivalent to 1 gas car out of 10.000 cars do catch fire.
Now how old are the 20.000 Tesla cars in average? 6 months maybe.

So Tesla is "in the average" of 1 out of 1000.
Yet this is a brand new model top performing car. You would expect better figures don't you?

Yeah, this worries me too. Although I'm not 100% on the details from what I've read the Tesla hit a "metal object" which caused the fire.

Will fender benders be a serious problem for Tesla? If simply hitting a metal object caused a fire then surely a fender bender would cause the same damage, right?

Well time will tell but this fire does have me a little concerned.

 

[bradc]

OK my reasoning is the following. Pretty simple in fact: the exposed surface of a Tesla is the entire battery pack (the whole lenght of the car in between the weels). The exposed surface of a gas car is its tank which I estimated taking 5 times less space.
So basically if you hit a perforating object on the road, on a Tesla there is great chance it will hit the battery because it occupies a big surface.
And if something perforate the battery pack... well you know the end of the story. I don't believe you can perforate this battery at 50 miles and don't expect one of the 16 compartment not to catch fire. Don't you think?

This is pretty specious reasoning and is still not borne out by the statistics. I like how NoMoGas put it in an earlier post:

Remember, safety is judged on the safety of the occupants, not the death of the car.

 

[pfq1982]

These statistics would only be relevant if vehicle age is a factor in vehicle fires. In other words if cars with an age of over five years caught fire more frequently than cars under five years. I'd be more inclined to think that miles driven is more important. 83 million miles = 1 Tesla fire, 10 and a bit million miles = 1 ICE fire.

Age might not be that relevant for a Tesla, but I suspect very relevant to an ICE car. So many cycles of heating/freezing, more lifetime miles on the engine block creating more wear and tear, more failure points, etc.

The NFHTA (right letters?) data shows most car fires originate in the engine block of ICE cars.

 

[JRP3]

OK my reasoning is the following. Pretty simple in fact: the exposed surface of a Tesla is the entire battery pack (the whole lenght of the car in between the weels). The exposed surface of a gas car is its tank which I estimated taking 5 times less space.
So basically if you hit a perforating object on the road, on a Tesla there is great chance it will hit the battery because it occupies a big surface.
And if something perforate the battery pack... well you know the end of the story. I don't believe you can perforate this battery at 50 miles and don't expect one of the 16 compartment not to catch fire. Don't you think?

An ICE vehicle has a number of areas that can be damaged and cause fire. Oil pan in the engine, oil pan in the transmission, fuel line running from the front to the back, and the fuel tank. Plus there is a hot exhaust system that can ignite all those leaking fluids. We also do not yet know if the bottom of the pack surface was where the damage occurred, or if it was the front face of the pack.

 

[mitia]

I'm not talking about safety. Tesla is a great and safe car. No doubt on that. Was talking about its potential to catch fire.
I can't see what you find "specious" in my reasoning?

 

[pfq1982]

Yeah, this worries me too. Although I'm not 100% on the details from what I've read the Tesla hit a "metal object" which caused the fire.

Will fender benders be a serious problem for Tesla? If simply hitting a metal object caused a fire then surely a fender bender would cause the same damage, right?

Well time will tell but this fire does have me a little concerned.

Don't worry about fender benders. Plenty of posts of big time model s crashes on TMC and not a single report of fire. They might even have their own thread.. haven't looked.

We don't have 100% of details, but appears the driver hit something and the damage was caused from underneath the car.

 

[JRP3]

Yeah, this worries me too. Although I'm not 100% on the details from what I've read the Tesla hit a "metal object" which caused the fire.

Will fender benders be a serious problem for Tesla? If simply hitting a metal object caused a fire then surely a fender bender would cause the same damage, right?

You've got to be kidding. Have you read any of this thread? A metal object was forced up into the battery pack at highway speed, not remotely related to a "fender bender".

 

[pfq1982]

again this is assuming cars catch on fire at a much higher rate as they age. I am not sure this is true.

cross-posted. Have seen no data, but the relationship makes sense.

 

[Zythryn]

Yeah, this worries me too. Although I'm not 100% on the details from what I've read the Tesla hit a "metal object" which caused the fire.

Will fender benders be a serious problem for Tesla? If simply hitting a metal object caused a fire then surely a fender bender would cause the same damage, right?

Well time will tell but this fire does have me a little concerned.

You should have no concerns. I have seen Teslas that have been in high speed off center collisions, that have sheared off power poles by driving through them, that have been T-boned (where the other car was totaled) and a number of fender benders, none of which resulted in fires and all of which the occupants came through without serious injury.
Add to that all of the NHSTA safety tests in which there were no fires or battery issues.

Even is this freak accident, the car told the driver to pull over in time for the owner to get off the highway, get out of the car and contact the authorities. A freak accident that causes most ICE fires rarely, if ever give you such warning.

 

[EdA]

You should have no concerns. I have seen Teslas that have been in high speed off center collisions, that have sheared off power poles by driving through them, that have been T-boned (where the other car was totaled) and a number of fender benders, none of which resulted in fires and all of which the occupants came through without serious injury.
Add to that all of the NHSTA safety tests in which there were no fires or battery issues.

Even is this freak accident, the car told the driver to pull over in time for the owner to get off the highway, get out of the car and contact the authorities. A freak accident that causes most ICE fires rarely, if ever give you such warning.

+1, hmm, perhaps +2 since he's a repeat offender

 

[DrComputer]

Just as a reminder back in January of this year, my Model S (and VFX's Roadster) hit a very large metal pole on the freeway while traveling at 65 MPH. It instantly destroyed both tires and rims on the left side of my Model S. It also pierced the metal shield under the frunk and dented the battery pack in several places. The car of course did NOT catch on fire. The LA service center replaced the rims, tires and metal shield under the frunk. They analyzed the damage to the battery pack and determined that the dents were just cosmetic and that the battery was fine. I haven't had any issues since the accident. Eric VFX's Roadster suffered more damage than my S but it didn't cause any battery or electrical issues.

 

[Soflason]

Yeah, this worries me too. Although I'm not 100% on the details from what I've read the Tesla hit a "metal object" which caused the fire.

Will fender benders be a serious problem for Tesla? If simply hitting a metal object caused a fire then surely a fender bender would cause the same damage, right?

Well time will tell but this fire does have me a little concerned.

Please check out this article to put things into a broader context before getting alarmed:
Surprise, Cars Sometimes Catch Fire When Crashed! Why Everyone Needs To Take A Breath On Tesla

Distilling key points, writer Nelson Ireson nicely sums it up:

Energy Storage = Volatility

Simply put, there's no way to store large amounts of energy in a car (be it electro-chemical or hydrocarbon-based) without having a whole lot of energy in a very small space. When things outside of normal operating parameters occur, that energy can escape--sometimes in violent ways.

If the Model S ran on compressed air, it could depressurize explosively. If it ran on natural gas, same story, with the bonus of ignition and flames. If it ran on distilled unicorn tears, well, it might get out OK. But this is the real world.

So everyone, please, take a step back, take a breath, whatever you need to do to pull back from this tizzy you're in, and consider that what we're all talking so excitedly about is just a car that got in a crash and then caught fire.

It happens every day.

In fact, it happens to over 150,000 cars every year.

 

[mitia]

Thanks I'm happy to learn about ICE cars (before they vanish for good!). Tesla has none of these weak point, just a big one at the bottom. Knowing the Tesla spirit I'm sure they'll try to correct it but this will prove expensive and very difficult. And we don't want to see delays in production. Look page 16. http://www.teslamotors.com/sites/default/files/downloads/20130214_ModelS_Emergency_Response_Guide.pdf
You should not cut or it WILL take fire. Notice also the small warning on every page!

I assumed the damage appeard at the bottom of the pack surface. But even if not, the document above tells you clearly it is a weak spot.

If you see how low is the battery in those drawings, it gives little options for improvement. An thicker metal panel I guess?

 

[surfingslovak]

Captain Ohsahi and his team (and other fire depts) should take it upon themselves to learn about Tesla:

Here's a nice page for them to start: http://www.teslamotors.com/firstresponders

They already did. http://www.teslamotors.com/firstresponders
Tex beat me to it.

Noted, thanks for responding. I hope that someone at Tesla will reach out to the fire department in Kent, WA. Questions about the battery pack and how to disable it on the various EVs that assembled at our local Earth Day were the first thing the firefighter crew wanted to know. Although they could contact each manufacturer or look it up online, there appeared to be a bit of a disconnect.

 

[EarlyAdopter]

I have a bunch of 'non-tesla friends' that know my enthusiasm. One even texted me a picture yesterday of a car she saw while on vacation in Redmond Washington (Tesla EV vanity plate). I was relieved the text said, "saw this and thought of you" :smile:.

I'm not looking forward to having to answer the questions I may get from uninformed folks...sigh...

PS. Whose car was that? Bad photo of just back of car (black or blue) with Tesla EV plate... My godchild's mother took your photo!!

Hahaha. That was me.

I notice people taking pictures of my car at stoplights in my rear view mirror a lot, actually. That was part of my motivation for getting that custom plate when I got the car back in January - it felt like everyone in the world was zooming up and tailgating me trying to figure out what kind of car it was. Back in January few people knew.

 

[Puyallup Bill]

Don't worry about fender benders. Plenty of posts of big time model s crashes on TMC and not a single report of fire. They might even have their own thread.. haven't looked.

And many, many LEAF crashes without fire. I'm not a bit concerned.

 

[Krugerrand]

Does anyone see unicorns dancing in the flame duct?

 

[fuelsman]

The Battery Pack Does Have Protections Built In

Actually the patents on the battery protection - ballastic shields, passenger compartment separation from battery, and runaway thermal reactions are quite extensive. (See TESLA MOTORS, INC. - Patent applications ). From the photos the battery failure vented as designed to maintain the safety of the passenger compartment. Now it's up to Tesla to determine if the damage could have been avoided. There is always a trade off in design - make the battery so impregnable and so heavy as to make the car impractical or protect the battery from most damage while ensuring maximum passenger safety. These are design restraints that all automobile manufacturers face when designing cars. Since there have been other accidents, such as the NHSTA 'runaway acceleration' compliant accident where the Model S landed on a low wall on its battery pack, they show that Tesla has designed the battery pack to withstand collisions. May be the collision that caused fire was something unusual that any car regardless of fuel might have failed. (Like my sister who was following a Home Depot truck with fork lift on the rear when the fork lift wheel fell off and rolled upright under her car denting everything including the fuel tank on her Honda Civic - luckily it didn't leak.) (For NHSTA 'runaway acceleration' compliant Tesla found the driver pushed accelerator instead of the brakes.)

 

[surfingslovak]

And many, many LEAF crashes without fire. I'm not a bit concerned.

Hey Bill, good to see you here! One thing to note is that the LEAF uses a more benign and less energy dense battery chemistry. It has one of the highest thermal runaway thresholds. Ironically, it's also more sensitive to ambient heat, as we have all learned last year. I think Tesla historically took a calculated risk by using the most energy dense cells it could find. Their more volatile chemistry would be compensated by proprietary battery pack design decisions, and a sophisticated temperature management system. This also made the battery impervious to ambient heat, as the recent Plug In America battery study has found.