Model S Accident/Fire

[gameon]

I don't see ICE car hit with model s if gas was the cause of the accident. Hitting metal object won't cause such damage to front and how come driver didn't see such big object etc... but details are not clear to me...maybe missing something

 

[lorih]

We have not-far-back historical evidence on TMC that this is not true.

Brianman, Which "this" are you referring to?

 

[Zextraterrestrial]

Wondering if this will trigger calls for a new kind of NHTSA "road debris impact" test for EVs w/ large battery packs installed in the underside of the vehicle --- something that gouges the heck out of the pack. I've only put 2000 miles on my car so far and have had several near-misses with road debris that might've done damage to the underside.

I would really hate to have a GAS tank under my car that could be ripped open by a large metal object!

 

[brianman]

Except for what isn't said. Which is that they refuse to say whether the battery pack was or wasn't involved.

I believe you drew the wrong conclusion here.

I'm not saying your prom picture is a good one. Just because I'm not saying (right now) doesn't mean I'm refusing to say it (ever).

 

[NigelM]

The pack is not designed to have a large metallic object rip through it either.

Where do you get that anything "ripped through the battery"?? Tesla specifically said: "Subsequently, a fire caused by the substantial damage sustained during the collision was contained to the front of the vehicle thanks to the design and construction of the vehicle and battery pack." Not sure how the fire would have been contained if the battery pack had been ripped open? I'll give you that they didn't specifically say the battery wasn't breached but they also didn't specifically say the car hit a piece of space debris either.

Given that we have a cause (metallic debris) and a plausible effect (a cascading failure from a pack that was ripped open), I'll take that and run with my speculation in the absence of a statement by Tesla otherwise.

Thanks for noting that you are speculating, but again if the battery pack was ripped open there would have been much more evidence....there are 8,000 batteries in there. You'd probably have seen plenty of them rolling around on the road.

 

[CapitalistOppressor]

+ 1million....

Geez people, enough trying to be internet heroes

What is your other plausible source? The 12v battery is less vulnerable to this type of damage than the main pack.

A random gas can is even more isolated, and they aren't easy to break in any case. I suppose it could be thrown against the front of the frunk and blow the lid off, which would spray the interior of the frunk. Where is your evidence that there was an impact hard enough to do that? The car rolled onto a transition and stopped, it didn't get stopped by an impact. And even if it did, you then need an ignition source.

In contrast, a piece of every day metallic debris, like that which rips open oil pans and gas tanks every day, could readily rip through the bottom of the battery, not stop the car, and cause a short that would cascade though the pack.

And again, Tesla did not deny a battery fire. Why in the world would an EV company, which faces intense scrutiny over the possibility of a battery fire, not immediately deny that this fire came from the pack?

 

[brianman]

Wondering if this will trigger calls for a new kind of NHTSA "road debris impact" test for EVs

I hope not. Maybe this though...

Wondering if this will trigger calls for a new kind of NHTSA "road debris impact" test for all cars regardless of whether they are EV, ICE, or run on glowing green crystals from meteors

 

[pfq1982]

There is evidence AGAINST cascade failure. front of car was clearly in flames, and the fire remained contained. Why are you saying this?

I'm not CO but have the same interpretation of the Tesla statement. The battery pack sits low in the car. How would the structure of the battery pack prevented a fire from getting to the front of the car, unless the battery pack itself was part of the fire? The statements credits the design of the pack, which implicitly suggests it was involved. It was designed to vent heat to the front, and away from passengers. Looks like it worked, which is really cool.

 

[rolosrevenge]

I don't think it was a cascading failure, but if a large metallic object ripped through the front part of the pack, that could cause a fire. The fact that it was contained to the front could say that Tesla avoided a cascading failure but at the same time, it was a battery pack fire at first which ignited the frunk.

 

[CapitalistOppressor]

Where do you get that anything "ripped through the battery"?? Tesla specifically said: "Subsequently, a fire caused by the substantial damage sustained during the collision was contained to the front of the vehicle thanks to the design and construction of the vehicle and battery pack." Not sure how the fire would have been contained if the battery pack had been ripped open? I'll give you that they didn't specifically say the battery wasn't breached but they also didn't specifically say the car hit a piece of space debris either.



Thanks for noting that you are speculating, but again if the battery pack was ripped open there would have been much more evidence....there are 8,000 batteries in there. You'd probably have seen plenty of them rolling around on the road.

By "ripped open" I mean breached. Though technically, just a substantial dent could be enough to cause this. Anything that is enough to displace the cells and cause a short could cause a cascade.

 

[brianman]

That said, if this was not a battery fire, then the Tesla statement was PR malpractice. They must know that a battery fire is the primary concern, and if this was not a battery fire they should have specifically denied it.

You're usually pretty level headed. This response was not such. IMO.

 

[ModelS8794]

What is your other plausible source? The 12v battery is less vulnerable to this type of damage than the main pack.

A random gas can is even more isolated, and they aren't easy to break in any case. I suppose it could be thrown against the front of the frunk and blow the lid off, which would spray the interior of the frunk. Where is your evidence that there was an impact hard enough to do that? The car rolled onto a transition and stopped, it didn't get stopped by an impact. And even if it did, you then need an ignition source.

In contrast, a piece of every day metallic debris, like that which rips open oil pans and gas tanks every day, could readily rip through the bottom of the battery, not stop the car, and cause a short that would cascade though the pack.

And again, Tesla did not deny a battery fire. Why in the world would an EV company, which faces intense scrutiny over the possibility of a battery fire, not immediately deny that this fire came from the pack?

CO I see you have used the term 'cascading' a number of times. A pack catching fire from debris impact is one thing, a pack catching fire in one place and that cascading through the entire pack is something else, and would likely cause more concern than the former case. You either do not differentiate between the two, or leap to the conclusion that it is the latter and not the former, and I think that's what folks here are objecting to.

 

[kevin99]

I am no fire expert. But the fire really does look like it was caused by something that was housed inside the frunk. I just don't see how the sides could be engulfed like that as well as the top and inner section. It looks like a canister of gas that exploded upon collision.

Even if its not, I suppose its a good warning not to leave gas in the front.

I think that is it. There must be some sort of inflammable in the frunk that does not belong to the car!? I can't imagine other than chemical what else can burn like this!?

 

[brianman]

Brianman, Which "this" are you referring to?

theorycraft

 

[CapitalistOppressor]

I don't think it was a cascading failure, but if a large metallic object ripped through the front part of the pack, that could cause a fire. The fact that it was contained to the front could say that Tesla avoided a cascading failure but at the same time, it was a battery pack fire at first which ignited the frunk.

Yes, it's possible it didn't cascade through the entire pack. Some of the designs listed in the patents show various partitioning schemes which could isolate it to just the front section of the battery.

 

[pfq1982]

I believe you drew the wrong conclusion here.

I'm not saying your prom picture is a good one. Just because I'm not saying (right now) doesn't mean I'm refusing to say it (ever).

If you want to judge their statement on minimizing the PR impact of an involved battery pack fire, okay, it's great.

If you want to judge their statement based on candor and forthrightness, it's a failure. Say whether the battery pack was involved, or not. I think it's abundantly obvious that it was (given crediting pack structure and lack of denial), but as posters on this thread prove, leaving it vague keeps people.... misinformed.

 

[brianman]

And again, Tesla did not deny a battery fire. Why in the world would an EV company, which faces intense scrutiny over the possibility of a battery fire, not immediately deny that this fire came from the pack?

Because they don't have data to support that assertion, yet.

"OMG OMG OMG Tesla must respond immediately."
Tesla responds.
"Tesla didn't say enough therefore..."
Tesla responds more, with incomplete data, and overstates things.
"Tesla proven to be wrong, film at 11."

Calm down and stop jumping to conclusions based on things not said.

Jeepers creepers.

 

[CapitalistOppressor]

CO I see you have used the term 'cascading' a number of times. A pack catching fire from debris impact is one thing, a pack catching fire in one place and that cascading through the entire pack is something else, and would likely cause more concern than the former case. You either do not differentiate between the two, or leap to the conclusion that it is the latter and not the former, and I think that's what folks here are objecting to.

Cascading combustion of lithium ion cells is an inherent danger in any large pack. Tesla wouldn't have taken time to file a dozen patents on how to prevent or mitigate it if it wasn't. That doesn't mean that a protection system can't be defeated by a catastrophic impact with a metal object. I don't see why folks would find this objectionable.

 

[rolosrevenge]

I also agree that if the main battery was not involved in the fire at all, Tesla failing to mention that is a very big failure.

 

[K5ING]

What is your other plausible source? The 12v battery is less vulnerable to this type of damage than the main pack.

A random gas can is even more isolated, and they aren't easy to break in any case. I suppose it could be thrown against the front of the frunk and blow the lid off, which would spray the interior of the frunk. Where is your evidence that there was an impact hard enough to do that? The car rolled onto a transition and stopped, it didn't get stopped by an impact. And even if it did, you then need an ignition source.

In contrast, a piece of every day metallic debris, like that which rips open oil pans and gas tanks every day, could readily rip through the bottom of the battery, not stop the car, and cause a short that would cascade though the pack.

And again, Tesla did not deny a battery fire. Why in the world would an EV company, which faces intense scrutiny over the possibility of a battery fire, not immediately deny that this fire came from the pack?

Note: I deleted my earlier post due to the fact that I tried to resize the picture and totally messed it up.

This object tore up the oil pan and other things on the underside of my VW Golf TDI about 10 years ago. The Golf (stock height) didn't have enough ground clearance to clear it and passed under the car, breaking the cast aluminum oil pan and damaged a couple more things as it passed under the car. I'm wondering what it could do to whatever is covering the batteries on a Model S.

Just guessing here, but is it possible that the car in the video hit something similar, and just one "bank" of batteries shorted and started a fire, but due to the design, didn't let it cascade to the entire pack?