Model S as a car (forgetting the EV)

[Blastphemy]

We're trending into fantasy land

With all due respect, in my view BMW 550i compare to Model S is a crap not worth my money at all. Here is why:

First of all i compare to Model S performance because that's what i am getting and that's what i think Model S really is.

1. Expensive maintenance. BMW 550i has expensive maintenance, too many parts that can break. Expensive timing belt replacement, oil change and so on. I guess u get the point. The engine is so complex that it is almost a miracle it works.
2. Expensive fuel cost. The fuel for BMW 550i is extremely expensive compare to Model S. Read this for more info.
3. Poor handling. With the Model S having such a low center of gravity the handling and driving experience is definitely much better than with BMW 550i. And also much safer.
4. Safety. The Model S will be for sure much safer than BMW 550i. There is no engine in the front so the crumple zone is much longer thus it's safer. Plus they say the S will have 5 star rating in all categories.
5. Too slow. Model S performance is faster and more fun to drive.
6. Too small. Model S has for sure more space.
7. Too noisy. BMW 550i is too noisy compare to Model S.

And this is just the tip of the iceberg. So i don't think BMW 550i is better than Model S nor a very strong competitor.

OK, the hyperbole is a bit over the top, here. Saying that the Model-S is "crap not worth my money at all" and "for sure" better in each of those categories than the BMW 550i is fantasy. You lose all credibility in my eyes with ridiculous statements like that. If you want to make a realistic comparison of competing models, that's fine - there's a lot good in both vehicles; but to outright dismiss one of the market leaders is just laughable.

A new 550i would be under warranty, so there isn't any "expensive" maintenance (not like the mandatory $600 annual maintenance required by Tesla to keep its warranty unvoided). If you think the 550i engine is so complex that "it is almost a miracle it works," then you obviously haven't read about the complexity of the Model-S. And considering how many millions of internal combustion engines there are on the road, it's no stretch of the imagination that BMW's engine works without divine intervention.

The fuel may be expensive for the 550i, but over the life of the car is anyone going to spend $20,000 on fuel? Because the fully-loaded Performance Model-S is $20,000 more than the 550i, and you still pay fuel costs on your electric bill (or in the amortized cost of the solar panels you bought if you're really green!)

Saying a BMW 550i doesn't handle well just demonstrates you've never driven one. There's a reason the BMW 550i is a hot car, and its handling is one of those defining factors of the model. I'm sure the Model-S will handle well too, but good luck definitively beating a 550i on the road.

The 550i is "too slow"? OK, again - you've never driven a 550i.

The 550i is "too small"? Have you compared the specs of both cars? Just putting a frunk on the Model-S does not make it a "bigger" car.

The 550i is "too nosiy"? Compared to what? Have you driven the Model-S? Do you hear absolutely nothing? Well, then, good to know it's nice and quiet just like a Lexus LS460. The 550i is only slightly less silent, and it ain't the road or ambient noise you're hearing. You make it sound like one would never hear police sirens or car horns sitting in the Model-S. Dream on.

I currently drive an Infiniti M56, so I'm not a BMW fanboy, but I'm also not oblivious to the strengths of the BMW 550i, Lexus LS460, Hyundai Equus, Mercedes-Benz E550, Audi A8, and other high-end cars. And considering that the Model-S is being marketed as a "premium" car and not a "luxury" car means you're going to be paying a LOT more for that electric engine than you think. If you compare a 2012 M56 or 2012 Hyundai Equus Ultimate to the Model-S Performance, are you really getting $40,000 more value? That all depends on your subjective opinion and what features you value the most. But there's a strong argument that the Model-S is overpriced for what you get, unless what you want is a fully-electric performance sedan with minimal bells and whistles (like adaptive cruise control and cooled front seats). If that's what you want, then the Model-S is the only way to go - if you have the money.

 

[Trnsl8r]

Maybe I shouldn't bother responding to this thread, but to me it's all about the EV. I like Elon's ambition about "best car", but if the Model S had been an ICE, I don't know if I would have given it a second look. I don't find the luxury aspect all that important, and the silly door handles and touch screen do nothing for me right now (but who knows, I may sing a different tune once I have it).

I like it because it's the smartest EV around (especially engineering-wise), has tons of space and performs like no other EV.

 

[richkae]

Blastphemy, I agree with you that most of what Medved said is fanboyism, if not outright wrong. Sorry Medved. But you said:

The fuel may be expensive for the 550i, but over the life of the car is anyone going to spend $20,000 on fuel? Because the fully-loaded Performance Model-S is $20,000 more than the 550i, and you still pay fuel costs on your electric bill (or in the amortized cost of the solar panels you bought if you're really green!)

The BMW 550i is rated at 17mpg combined bu the EPA Fuel Economy of the 2012 BMW 550i
Someone who drives 12000 miles per year will spend $20,000 more on gas for a BMW 550i than a Model S owner spends on electricity in about 6 years assuming the trend of gasoline prices for the last 10 years continues. If you incorrectly assume that gas prices will remain at the current prices for the next 8.5 years then it will take 8.5 years.

 

[ckessel]

The fuel may be expensive for the 550i, but over the life of the car is anyone going to spend $20,000 on fuel?

I half-joked in another thread that one of the problems EVs have is people aren't willing to do the math. Yes, $20k on fuel is quite likely.

kWh	$0.0442					
miles    EV Cost     Gas Cost @4  Gas Cost @5  Gas Cost @6   Gas Cost @7  Gas Cost @8
0        $0.00       $0.00        $0.00         $0.00        $0.00        $0.00
10000    $125.27     $1,600.00    $2,000.00     $2,400.00    $2,800.00    $3,200.00
20000    $250.54     $3,200.00    $4,000.00     $4,800.00    $5,600.00    $6,400.00
30000    $375.81     $4,800.00    $6,000.00     $7,200.00    $8,400.00    $9,600.00
40000    $501.08     $6,400.00    $8,000.00     $9,600.00    $11,200.00   $12,800.00
50000    $626.35     $8,000.00    $10,000.00    $12,000.00   $14,000.00   $16,000.00
60000    $751.61     $9,600.00    $12,000.00    $14,400.00   $16,800.00   $19,200.00
70000    $876.88     $11,200.00   $14,000.00    $16,800.00   $19,600.00   $22,400.00
80000    $1,002.15   $12,800.00   $16,000.00    $19,200.00   $22,400.00   $25,600.00
90000    $1,127.42   $14,400.00   $18,000.00    $21,600.00   $25,200.00   $28,800.00
100000   $1,252.69   $16,000.00   $20,000.00    $24,000.00   $28,000.00   $32,000.00
110000   $1,377.96   $17,600.00   $22,000.00    $26,400.00   $30,800.00   $35,200.00
120000   $1,503.23   $19,200.00   $24,000.00    $28,800.00   $33,600.00   $38,400.00
130000   $1,628.50   $20,800.00   $26,000.00    $31,200.00   $36,400.00   $41,600.00
140000   $1,753.77   $22,400.00   $28,000.00    $33,600.00   $39,200.00   $44,800.00
150000   $1,879.04   $24,000.00   $30,000.00    $36,000.00   $42,000.00   $48,000.00

(.0442 is Oregon's nighttime rate)
Assumptions: 25 mpg average for gas, and 283 wH/mile for electric (Model S 85kWH / 300 miles),

 

[GSP]

In defense of Medved's stance, many of us have lost all, or almost all, interest in ICE cars. Yes, that makes us fanboys, but the lack of interest is real and will be reflected in our future purchases. Yes the 550i and the like are very good cars, and still desireable to the general public, but they no longer are to us.

As more people experience EVs, the general public is likely to follow us.

GSP

 

[qwk]

Comparing a 550i to a performance model s is just as stupid as calling Bmw cars junk FYI. A performance Model s is comparable to an M5.

Even an M3 will slaughter a 550 in acceleration and at a track. Two totally different cars built for different purposes.

OK, the hyperbole is a bit over the top, here. Saying that the Model-S is "crap not worth my money at all" and "for sure" better in each of those categories than the BMW 550i is fantasy. You lose all credibility in my eyes with ridiculous statements like that. If you want to make a realistic comparison of competing models, that's fine - there's a lot good in both vehicles; but to outright dismiss one of the market leaders is just laughable.

A new 550i would be under warranty, so there isn't any "expensive" maintenance (not like the mandatory $600 annual maintenance required by Tesla to keep its warranty unvoided). If you think the 550i engine is so complex that "it is almost a miracle it works," then you obviously haven't read about the complexity of the Model-S. And considering how many millions of internal combustion engines there are on the road, it's no stretch of the imagination that BMW's engine works without divine intervention.

The fuel may be expensive for the 550i, but over the life of the car is anyone going to spend $20,000 on fuel? Because the fully-loaded Performance Model-S is $20,000 more than the 550i, and you still pay fuel costs on your electric bill (or in the amortized cost of the solar panels you bought if you're really green!)

Saying a BMW 550i doesn't handle well just demonstrates you've never driven one. There's a reason the BMW 550i is a hot car, and its handling is one of those defining factors of the model. I'm sure the Model-S will handle well too, but good luck definitively beating a 550i on the road.

The 550i is "too slow"? OK, again - you've never driven a 550i.

The 550i is "too small"? Have you compared the specs of both cars? Just putting a frunk on the Model-S does not make it a "bigger" car.

The 550i is "too nosiy"? Compared to what? Have you driven the Model-S? Do you hear absolutely nothing? Well, then, good to know it's nice and quiet just like a Lexus LS460. The 550i is only slightly less silent, and it ain't the road or ambient noise you're hearing. You make it sound like one would never hear police sirens or car horns sitting in the Model-S. Dream on.

I currently drive an Infiniti M56, so I'm not a BMW fanboy, but I'm also not oblivious to the strengths of the BMW 550i, Lexus LS460, Hyundai Equus, Mercedes-Benz E550, Audi A8, and other high-end cars. And considering that the Model-S is being marketed as a "premium" car and not a "luxury" car means you're going to be paying a LOT more for that electric engine than you think. If you compare a 2012 M56 or 2012 Hyundai Equus Ultimate to the Model-S Performance, are you really getting $40,000 more value? That all depends on your subjective opinion and what features you value the most. But there's a strong argument that the Model-S is overpriced for what you get, unless what you want is a fully-electric performance sedan with minimal bells and whistles (like adaptive cruise control and cooled front seats). If that's what you want, then the Model-S is the only way to go - if you have the money.

 

[richkae]

With all due respect, in my view BMW 550i compare to Model S is a crap not worth my money at all. Here is why:

First of all i compare to Model S performance because that's what i am getting and that's what i think Model S really is.

1. Expensive maintenance. BMW 550i has expensive maintenance, too many parts that can break. Expensive timing belt replacement, oil change and so on. I guess u get the point. The engine is so complex that it is almost a miracle it works.
2. Expensive fuel cost. The fuel for BMW 550i is extremely expensive compare to Model S. Read this for more info.
3. Poor handling. With the Model S having such a low center of gravity the handling and driving experience is definitely much better than with BMW 550i. And also much safer.
4. Safety. The Model S will be for sure much safer than BMW 550i. There is no engine in the front so the crumple zone is much longer thus it's safer. Plus they say the S will have 5 star rating in all categories.
5. Too slow. Model S performance is faster and more fun to drive.
6. Too small. Model S has for sure more space.
7. Too noisy. BMW 550i is too noisy compare to Model S.

And this is just the tip of the iceberg. So i don't think BMW 550i is better than Model S nor a very strong competitor.

1. ICEs are much more mechanically complex than electric drivetrains. Do not forget the transmission, I have known of more cars that need transmission rebuild/replacement than ICE. Both are very expensive. The electric drivetrain is superior the way an integrated circuit is superior to vacuum tubes, or a solid state device is superior to a rotary phone dial. I believe over the long term, the EV will have higher value because of lower maintenance costs - but the short term costs are determined by Tesla and BMWs policies. However this may all be a tie due to battery replacement.

2. As I stated in an above post, I believe you make your money back in about 6 years. After that the savings get even more dramatic.

3. I would not call a BMW poor handling. BMW has very talented engineers and despite Tesla's center of gravity advantage it is possible that the difference may be difficult to distinguish. But that might come at the cost of significant complexity on the part of the BMW, and that makes Tesla a winner in my book, because I like simplicity. A fair test of handling would be on a racetrack, but it would have to have short straights so the cars don't exceed 100 mph, otherwise the lower top speed of the Tesla would prevent an accurate comparison. If Tesla won, it have an asterisk, but that would be fine with me. I'm waiting to drive and see tests.

4. 5 stars is 5 stars.

5. The Model S is not faster. It is quicker ( accelerates better ) at most speeds. However the BMW has a higher top speed, and most likely goes from 100 to 130 mph faster than the Tesla.
This may matter on the autobahn, and to delusional people who buy cars with top speeds they never will use. However I bet that at useful speeds ( like 50 to 70 ) the Tesla has an advantage.

6. Saying "too small" is not meaningful. If both cars have enough space for you, then they are both big enough. However I am looking forward to the voluminous cargo capacity of the Tesla.

7. Too noisy. We should wait and see. The Model S may be quieter, but it may be imperceptible. The BMW may acheive this with a bunch of weight in sound deadening. If that is the case, then Tesla wins in my mind, because I like the elegance of not having to cover up what is not there. Other consumers may not care.

 

[HFh]

Maybe I shouldn't bother responding to this thread, but to me it's all about the EV. I like Elon's ambition about "best car", but if the Model S had been an ICE, I don't know if I would have given it a second look. I don't find the luxury aspect all that important, and the silly door handles and touch screen do nothing for me right now (but who knows, I may sing a different tune once I have it).

I like it because it's the smartest EV around (especially engineering-wise), has tons of space and performs like no other EV.

So it is definitely the case that if the Tesla weren't an EV, I probably wouldn't pay it any attention.

 

[richkae]

Lets look at it from a different point of view.
Pretend the Model S was a regular ICE car, with all of its EV specs ( its range limitation is actually similiar to a CNG car without the penalties of CNG: lousy acceleration, very bad cargo space )

- incredible throttle response at any speed, like a perfect CVT, the smoothest engine in any car no shifting, no noise
- incredible MPG as defined by cost/mile. About 1/10th that of a comparable performance car.
- quietest in its class, especially under power
- best cargo volume in its class
- excellent handling, among best in its class
- fantastic acceleration, among the best in its class
- 5 star safety
- you leave home every day with a full tank
- long term durability of drivetrain far exceeds average

drawbacks:
- fuel tank is smaller than average
- refueling opportunities limited, and fuel flow rate is slow
- you have to pay up front to save money over time on operating cost

 

[Robert.Boston]

FWIW, we have a BMW 535 x-drive Sportswagon. We got the wagon in large part because the 5 sedan doesn't have nearly enough storage space; only 14.0 cu.ft. The Model S more than doubles that in the rear alone. The 8 cu.ft. in the frunk is pure gravy, and the ability to vastly increase that space by lowering the rear seats (not an option on a 5 sedan) further adds a plus.

So let's be clear: the BMW 5 is about the best an ICE can be. That's hardly surprising--it's the result of nearly a century of evolutionary improvements. EVs are a revolutionary change, however, not only changing the drivetrain but allowing a complete rethink of the traditional layout of vehicles. I'm sure that in 30 years, we'll look back and think how quaint the Model S is for mimicking the now-outdated chassis of ICE vehicles.

 

[Tommy]

What is a CD player? Hm.... Wait a sec. I guess it's a device people used, back in old days, to play music on. It's just a guess, but I'll check with my grandpa to make sure. :wink:

..... But the quality of ripped music compare to ORIGINAL CD is really terrible. What's the use of good quality speakers and good acoustics when the file you listen to is in a bad quality? People normally don't realize this or don't care about, but a true original audio quality is LPCM 44100 Hz 16 bits stereo for a bitrate of 1411 kbps. These days many people are happy with just 190 kbps. But i must say it is a huge, huge difference to listen to 190 kbps and to listen to 1411 kbps. With good quality speakers you can clearly tell the difference. In Model S you should have the option to enjoy a good quality audio.

Really good downloadable music exists that has both higher bits (24) and higher sample rate (192Hz) than what CD offers. Unfortunately, the ubiquitousness of Apple coupled with their low bit/sample rate downloads has lead many to believe that music downloaded must be of inferior quality. As an alternative to Apple you might want to check this site: HDtracks high resolution audiophile music downloads

I am an audio buff and sorry if slightly OT, however if the sound system is as good as Tesla claims, every extra bit helps.

 

[PeterW]

Lets look at it from a different point of view.
Pretend the Model S was a regular ICE car, with all of its EV specs ( its range limitation is actually similiar to a CNG car without the penalties of CNG: lousy acceleration, very bad cargo space )

- incredible throttle response at any speed, like a perfect CVT, the smoothest engine in any car no shifting, no noise
- incredible MPG as defined by cost/mile. About 1/10th that of a comparable performance car.
- quietest in its class, especially under power
- best cargo volume in its class
- excellent handling, among best in its class
- fantastic acceleration, among the best in its class
- 5 star safety
- you leave home every day with a full tank
- long term durability of drivetrain far exceeds average

drawbacks:
- fuel tank is smaller than average
- refueling opportunities limited, and fuel flow rate is slow
- you have to pay up front to save money over time on operating cost

Nice post.

I would like everyone to imagine it is 2020 (8yrs from now). Now write down those drawbacks. Can you? Do you think they will still exist? I do not think 1 & 3 will
Do you think there are other drawbacks?

 

[strider]

7. Too noisy. We should wait and see. The Model S may be quieter, but it may be imperceptible. The BMW may acheive this with a bunch of weight in sound deadening. If that is the case, then Tesla wins in my mind, because I like the elegance of not having to cover up what is not there. Other consumers may not care.

BMW lost all respect from me a few months ago when I was reading a review of the latest M5 in Car and Driver:

Even the roar of the M TwinPower Turbo (we just like saying that name), muffled by the turbos and the cabin soundproofing, is partly ersatz, enhanced by a playback of engine noise through the stereo system to give passengers a heightened “acoustic experience.”

Are you freaking kidding me!?!?! You're going to add engine noise to the cabin THROUGH THE STEREO!?!?!? That is hands down the dumbest thing I've ever heard of in my life. I can only imagine the following on a Bavarian whiteboard:

Step 1) Spend a ton of money of a high-performance engine.
Step 2) Spend a ton of money to quiet the engine and isolate the cabin from the noise.
Step 3) Spend a ton of money to add the noise BACK in through the stereo.
Step 4) Profit!

BMW is now run by idiots and any time anyone mentions them in a positive way I can't help but laugh.

 

[shark2k]

OK, the hyperbole is a bit over the top, here. Saying that the Model-S is "crap not worth my money at all" and "for sure" better in each of those categories than the BMW 550i is fantasy. You lose all credibility in my eyes with ridiculous statements like that. If you want to make a realistic comparison of competing models, that's fine - there's a lot good in both vehicles; but to outright dismiss one of the market leaders is just laughable.

A new 550i would be under warranty, so there isn't any "expensive" maintenance (not like the mandatory $600 annual maintenance required by Tesla to keep its warranty unvoided). If you think the 550i engine is so complex that "it is almost a miracle it works," then you obviously haven't read about the complexity of the Model-S. And considering how many millions of internal combustion engines there are on the road, it's no stretch of the imagination that BMW's engine works without divine intervention.

Really though, that warranty is only for so long and in the defense of the Model S, we do not actually know how much the annual maintenance is going to cost. There is annual maintenance for ICE cars that is not going to be needed at all for the Model S, so you have to take that into account. I've never owned a BMW, but I know from their commercials they used to mention about how certain things are included for a certain time period, but that might not be the case anymore.

Also, what exactly is so complex about the Model S? The motor is simple as is the drive train. Really the only complex thing I can think of is the BMS, but pretty sure the majority of that is software driven. An ICE in comparison has way more parts than the the Model S motor.

The fuel may be expensive for the 550i, but over the life of the car is anyone going to spend $20,000 on fuel? Because the fully-loaded Performance Model-S is $20,000 more than the 550i, and you still pay fuel costs on your electric bill (or in the amortized cost of the solar panels you bought if you're really green!)

Already disproven, twice in this thread.

-Shark2k

 

[Doug_G]

I was talking to my Ranger a few days ago, and he said that he expects the maintenance required for the Model S to be significantly less than the Roadster. They can access a lot more diagnostic information remotely. The car is designed with maintenance in mind (certainly that's not the case for some things in the Roadster).

I don't know if this will translate to lower annual maintenance fees, but they certainly won't have to do that time-consuming extraction and cleaning out of the PEM - it's liquid cooled and there won't be all that crap getting in there. That's what they spend the most time on.

 

[AnOutsider]

I was talking to my Ranger a few days ago, and he said that he expects the maintenance required for the Model S to be significantly less than the Roadster. They can access a lot more diagnostic information remotely. The car is designed with maintenance in mind (certainly that's not the case for some things in the Roadster).

I don't know if this will translate to lower annual maintenance fees, but they certainly won't have to do that time-consuming extraction and cleaning out of the PEM - it's liquid cooled and there won't be all that crap getting in there. That's what they spend the most time on.

Really good to know. Will we have to put the car in some sort of diagnostic mode or can they just dial up our car anytime?

 

[dsm363]

Really good to know. Will we have to put the car in some sort of diagnostic mode or can they just dial up our car anytime?

If it is like the Roadster, you can opt in to leave access on or turn it on for for a short time to allow them access (6 hours I think but would have to check)

 

[Blastphemy]

Apples to oranges

I half-joked in another thread that one of the problems EVs have is people aren't willing to do the math. Yes, $20k on fuel is quite likely.

kWh    $0.0442                    
miles    EV Cost     Gas Cost @4  Gas Cost @5  Gas Cost @6   Gas Cost @7  Gas Cost @8
0        $0.00       $0.00        $0.00         $0.00        $0.00        $0.00
10000    $125.27     $1,600.00    $2,000.00     $2,400.00    $2,800.00    $3,200.00
20000    $250.54     $3,200.00    $4,000.00     $4,800.00    $5,600.00    $6,400.00
30000    $375.81     $4,800.00    $6,000.00     $7,200.00    $8,400.00    $9,600.00
40000    $501.08     $6,400.00    $8,000.00     $9,600.00    $11,200.00   $12,800.00
50000    $626.35     $8,000.00    $10,000.00    $12,000.00   $14,000.00   $16,000.00
60000    $751.61     $9,600.00    $12,000.00    $14,400.00   $16,800.00   $19,200.00
70000    $876.88     $11,200.00   $14,000.00    $16,800.00   $19,600.00   $22,400.00
80000    $1,002.15   $12,800.00   $16,000.00    $19,200.00   $22,400.00   $25,600.00
90000    $1,127.42   $14,400.00   $18,000.00    $21,600.00   $25,200.00   $28,800.00
100000   $1,252.69   $16,000.00   $20,000.00    $24,000.00   $28,000.00   $32,000.00
110000   $1,377.96   $17,600.00   $22,000.00    $26,400.00   $30,800.00   $35,200.00
120000   $1,503.23   $19,200.00   $24,000.00    $28,800.00   $33,600.00   $38,400.00
130000   $1,628.50   $20,800.00   $26,000.00    $31,200.00   $36,400.00   $41,600.00
140000   $1,753.77   $22,400.00   $28,000.00    $33,600.00   $39,200.00   $44,800.00
150000   $1,879.04   $24,000.00   $30,000.00    $36,000.00   $42,000.00   $48,000.00

(.0442 is Oregon's nighttime rate)
Assumptions: 25 mpg average for gas, and 283 wH/mile for electric (Model S 85kWH / 300 miles),

The above proves my point; I'm not sure why no one sees it. Even at $6 gas one doesn't spend $20,000 until 90,000 miles. For most people, that's about six years. But for a Model-S owner, that $20,000 is gone the moment you take delivery.

However, gas where I live is (and has been) less than $3.70 for quite some time, and the likelihood that we'll see $6 gas over the next six years is very low (despite what EV proponents want everyone to believe) because it wouldn't be politically prudent for any administration to allow that to happen. So using the $4/gallon example, one wouldn't hit $20k until about 8-9 years of driving. And if you're at all like me, you'll have a new car long before that. I know many people who can afford $80-110k cars, but don't know any who keep them for more than five years, if even that long. The longest I ever kept a car was eight years, and that was out of necessity since I was young.

That doesn't change the fact that forward-thinking environmentally-responsible people who can afford to buy the best electric car available have a wonderful product available to them in the Tesla Model-S. But don't kid yourself - this car is no bargain, and shouldn't be bought by anyone who thinks they'll save money shelling out nearly $100,000 for a car that doesn't have some of the features found in my dad's ~$35k Buick or my neighbor's ~$45k Nissan. If you've got the means and the conscience, the Model-S is the car for you. I know I'm looking forward to getting on the list for the Model-S 85kWh Performance, but I'm also very aware of which luxury features I'm giving up to get it...some of which I'm not happy about.

 

[AnOutsider]

That doesn't change the fact that forward-thinking environmentally-responsible people who can afford to buy the best electric car available have a wonderful product available to them in the Tesla Model-S. But don't kid yourself - this car is no bargain, and shouldn't be bought by anyone who thinks they'll save money shelling out nearly $100,000 for a car that doesn't have some of the features found in my dad's ~$35k Buick or my neighbor's ~$45k Nissan. If you've got the means and the conscience, the Model-S is the car for you. I know I'm looking forward to getting on the list for the Model-S 85kWh Performance, but I'm also very aware of which luxury features I'm giving up to get it...some of which I'm not happy about.

I think, especially in this price range, most of the buyers are not REALLY feeling the crunch at the pump, so you're right, gas savings is not the best reason to buy the car. Personally, that's not even on my list, there's just so much else to like about this car -- independence (both personal and national) is one of them.

We'll never get the public to adopt EVs by throwing math formulas at them anyway -- how often do people sit down and make rational decisions? I think once the convenience, performance, (assumed) durability and for some, independence comes to the surface more people will consider EVs; especially if they're as cool as Tesla has made theirs.

 

[ckessel]

However, gas where I live is (and has been) less than $3.70 for quite some time, and the likelihood that we'll see $6 gas over the next six years is very low.

In the last 5 years gas prices have gone up over 50%. There's no reason to believe the next five years won't be the same. The Model S may or may not be cheaper due to being electricity powered, but it's pretty clearly competitive in complete cost of ownership.

I know many people who can afford $80-110k cars, but don't know any who keep them for more than five years, if even that long.

I know several folks that could, technically (all software engineers), afford the Model S. All of them keep their cars longer than 5 years. Swapping out cars regularly is fiscally imprudent. If your argument is that people who don't care about auto costs won't benefit from long term ownership savings, well, you win that one, but then they don't care so I'm not sure how it matters.