Model S Brake & Accelerator Pedal Positions

[Jason S]

How does the guy do the burnout in the Video thread without having his foot on the brake and the throttle?

Maybe he has two feet? JK, I have had the same thought, this would imply that in fact the brake does not override the accelerator???

The article with the video says they ripped out some fuses to disable traction control. The burnout is the driver simply flooring it.

 

[dailydriver]

The article with the video says they ripped out some fuses to disable traction control. The burnout is the driver simply flooring it.

For my video (not the Road & Track one), no fuses removed, but you're correct - TC off and just floor it! You don't need to apply a little brake to hold the front while the rear tires spin like some automatic transmission cars (the Model S doesn't like this as others have experienced). There is plenty of torque to just break the tires loose from a standing start.

 

[Zythryn]

The fact that everyone seems to have to modify their foot behavior to not press both pedals at the same time just shows that the pedal placement and spacing are not optimal. I have NEVER had this issue on my Roadster or Lexus.

That statement is as accurate as saying "The fact that no one seems to have this issue".

Many people have stated they have not had this issue.
In 3300 miles of driving over more than 2 months neither my wife, nor I have had this issue.
I also find the spacing and placement of the pedals very natural and convenient.

I do agree that if there is a better position the pedals can be put in to minimize the number of people experiencing this, great, that should be done.
However, if it makes the process more difficult or cause a similar issue for just as many other people, then I don't think any adjustments should be made.

 

[Al Sherman]

Well, at least I got the answer on the burnout video. Thanks. As far as the "problem" I guess I'll have to wait for the car to see if my 13 4E feet can stay out of trouble. :smile:

 

[nrcooled]

I find that I prefer cars with closer pedal spacing. I have driven manual transmission cars my entire life and having the brake closer to the accelerator allows for easier heel-toe downshifts and smoother transitions from brake to throttle (and vice versa). By having them closer it is easier to rotate the foot while keeping your "toes" on the brake and using your heel to blip the throttle to rev-match the engine speed with the transmission speed. With that being said I also wear a size 10 shoe.

For the record I've had two test drives (one was an extended drive at the DC store) and this was never an issue.

 

[napabill]

I was in my garage, in R with ONE foot on the brake.... when the warning sound came on and told me not to press brake and accelerator at the same time. I looked down at my shoe and it was 90% on the brake and 10% overlapping the accelerator. So I conclude that (a) Tesla is technically correct with this warning but (b) the brake and accelerator should not be in the same plane for exactly this reason.

Hopefully they will recess the accelerator a few mm more so single foot operation (granted I am a size 12 shoe) does not trigger both pedals so easily.

+1 Like everyone, I hardly ever use the brake pedal. Except when sitting at a stop light where gravity becomes a factor. It is then that I get the warning, just like in your example. Like you I believe an adjustment to play height of one or both pedals solves the problem. No safety issue here, just an annoying warning while sitting at a light.

 

[SuperCoug]

SuperCoug didn't say that, your quote is plainly wrong.

Thanks Norbert, I certainly didn't think that's what I was saying and I'm glad you didn't interpret it the way ckessel did.

For the record, I'm sorry if my initial post looked like a personal attack but I bristled at the characterization that the pedal placement was just plain wrong, must be fixed, and was a safety issue. As many of us have pointed out on this thread there are no automotive standards in this area.

Here are some sweeping generalities that I think one can safely make so here I go: (These are just some personal observations and opinions.)

1) Pedal spacing is not standard and tends to vary widely. IMO they tend to be closer in German cars than American or Japanese cars.

2) Closely spaced pedals work best when the driver uses heel-toe driving technique. My Mother would routinely hit both pedals in their VW Passat and my Dad thought it was hilarious when she proclaimed that high heeled shoes made it impossible to drive that car. I can still hear him saying "Stop bending your knees! Just move your toe!"

3) The Size and shape of the pedals vary even more than spacing. I've seen enormous brake pedals in some cars and other vehicles the gas/brake/clutch looked identical.

The reason that I think there is a 0% chance that Tesla would change the spacing is they simply have way too much on their plate. They are trying to make other minor enhancements when ramping up production. They can't afford to stop and address a significant change like this one. Beside, there isn't even a consensus that there is a problem in the first place so it makes sense for them to keep their focus on other issues. I find the pedal placement very natural for my tastes and would be disappointed if they changed them significantly.

 

[ThortsMD]

I hit both pedals *5* times during my test drive. After reading this blog, I hope I will be able to re-train my right foot when my car arrives. Size eleven shoes, have drive 20+ vehicles from multi-ton trucks to sports cars.

 

[Doug_G]

I've done it once while wearing boots. Clumsy big feet...

Perhaps the issue is that you don't have enough feedback on where the pedal is. By "feedback" I mean having the brake pedal a little higher than the gas pedal, so if you attempt to just move your foot horizontally you'll run into it, and so would quickly learn where it is by feel. Also if you did overlap you'd be less likely to push the accelerator.

One other psychological factor - with an ICE you'd hear the engine rev and would stop doing it. The Model S has to tell you, which is more "in the face".

 

[Fedderman]

I still have not experienced the simultaneous brake/accelerator issue... for me the pedal spacing is very natural. For comparison, here are pics of the pedal positions in my M3 and Model S, taken from a similar perspective, centered between the brake and accelerator pedals. See if you can guess which one is which :wink:.

 

[wycolo]

Manoevering in close quarters *requires* you drag the brake as you accelerate, so you can carefully control speed. Especially on the Roadster with all that transmission slop. So the ModelS scolds & nags, don't worry about it. Not like its making a report & submitting it to headquarters.
--

 

[snapster]

Glad to see a primary dislike of mine being discussed on production models. I have yet to test it purposefully, but it has always felt to me that braking is actually the lost function even with minor accidental contact to the accelerator. It's manageable but I dislike having to be conscious of this (never have had to adjust on porsche, bmw, gm, toyota, volkswagon, etc.). My wife says has yet to experience and she's the daily driver. I have size 10.5 + often wearing clunky doc martins.

 

[DrComputer]

I think the responses on here of people saying "it hasn't happened to me so it must not be a problem" are a bit short sided. If it wasn't a problem there wouldn't be a bunch of people posting on a thread saying that they are getting the pedal overlap error. I let two friends of mine test drive my S on Christmas day. Both of them got the pedal overlap message and asked why. If you look at your feet when you get the error (and I looked at my friend's feet) it's always the same problem. When pivoting from the accelerator to the brake you wind up clipping the accelerator with the right side of your foot while pressing the brake. It looks like the brake pedal either needs to be off-set a bit further forward so when it is being pressed it will be higher than the accelerator or it needs to be moved a bit more to the left. I agree that many cars have their pedals is different positions, but it seems that whatever position Tesla has chosen seems to cause many people to press both pedals at the same time.

 

[Lloyd]

I believe that part of the problem is that the pedel is at the same level horizontally. Usually the accelerator is a little farther forward or depressed from the brake. Thus if you have a lazy foot not moved all the way to the left pressing the brake does not allow pressing of the accelerator. I did it once, and have trained myself to be a little more vigalent in foot placement. I was coming to a stop with a car in front of me after a long drive, and got lazy. I realized what was happening a repositioned my foot, but it allowed me to travel several feet farther than I had anticipated.

 

[efusco]

I did, for the first time, accidentally hit the brake on the way to the accelerator today. Still don't consider it an issue.

 

[Doug_G]

I believe that part of the problem is that the pedel is at the same level horizontally. Usually the accelerator is a little farther forward or depressed from the brake. Thus if you have a lazy foot not moved all the way to the left pressing the brake does not allow pressing of the accelerator.

Yeah, I keep finding that my foot is over the edge of the accelerator when I drive with my boots. Although I now notice I'm doing that and tilt my foot so it doesn't push the accelerator. (You'd think I'd stop doing it altogether, but strangely my muscle memory has adapted in its own way.)

One other related thing happened today... when moving from the accelerator to the brake, the edge of my boot got caught momentarily on the back side of the brake pedal.

I hate to say it, but I'm thinking this is an issue that needs to be corrected. They need to raise up the brake pedal a little.

 

[Brian H]

It's all "fly by wire" electronics, so why not disable the goose pedal signal when the brake is pressed? Then overlap wouldn't matter, even for size 14s.

 

[mknox]

I hate to say it, but I'm thinking this is an issue that needs to be corrected. They need to raise up the brake pedal a little.

Funny, but the first car I drove many years ago was a '67 Olds Ninety Eight and it had the brake and gas pedals at the same height, and that's how I learned to drive. After all the years that have gone by, I still find it awkward when the brake is higher than the gas. I think I'll probably be the one who actually likes the Mode S setup!

 

[strider]

Glad to see a primary dislike of mine being discussed on production models. I have yet to test it purposefully, but it has always felt to me that braking is actually the lost function even with minor accidental contact to the accelerator. It's manageable but I dislike having to be conscious of this (never have had to adjust on porsche, bmw, gm, toyota, volkswagon, etc.). My wife says has yet to experience and she's the daily driver. I have size 10.5 + often wearing clunky doc martins.

I wonder if it's cutting regen (due to the accelerator being depressed) and so it "feels" like you're losing braking. I know when I hit some ripply pavement in my Roadster and it cuts regen due to loss of traction it feels like my brakes have failed (the same feeling as hydroplaning or sliding on ice).

 

[Brian H]

Funny, but the first car I drove many years ago was a '67 Olds Ninety Eight and it had the brake and gas pedals at the same height, and that's how I learned to drive. After all the years that have gone by, I still find it awkward when the brake is higher than the gas. I think I'll probably be the one who actually likes the Mode S setup!

From way back in the day, I have vague memories of a pedal extender -- a block of wood or SLT fixed on the pedal, for short legs.