Model S can be recharged faster than filling a gas tank.

[cb32000]

I'm talking specifically what cb32000 proposed, which is to keep the current battery and swap only the metal-air one. This would require a separate space and connectors for the metal-air battery.

If it's talking about a hybrid battery in the same enclosure then the logistics of that is not significantly different from what we are already discussing (since it would require swapping the entire pack).


The way I'm reading the quote is that this will happen within the next couple of months (part of Elon's 5 part trilogy). Not something that is more far off.

I would be surprised by anything available in the next few months to allow recharging at the rate of faster than filling a fuel tank, or 5 minutes.
If it is to current cars, battery exchange with no testing seems to be the only thing possible, or lend you a car.

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stopcrazypp good thought, maybe it is a hybrid battery where the Metal-Air portion is swappable is possible. Is the entire battery space filled even with the 85 KWh?

 

[TD1]

Its important to note that the Area has to be very easily accessible for the driver to swap the Aluminum Part. So I doubt it will be inside the current battery case.
That Area seems to be perfect for an Metal-Air Addition.

 

[brianman]

There IS a way to greatly increase the charging speed of a Supercharger. The big limiting factor in charging is the ability to keep the battery cool. Lithium batteries can be charged very quickly if kept cool - that's why the S has liquid cooling.

Meatlocker superchargers, film at 11.

 

[CapitalistOppressor]

So, here's something I don't think has been mentioned earlier.

There IS a way to greatly increase the charging speed of a Supercharger. The big limiting factor in charging is the ability to keep the battery cool. Lithium batteries can be charged very quickly if kept cool - that's why the S has liquid cooling.

But, the radiator uses ambient air to do so. Supercharging, even more so - the car isn't moving while charging (I can't recall if the S has fans for it's radiators - I don't see them in any of my pictures of the chassis at the dealers).

Assuming you can have a cable thick enough to handle > 120 kW and still flexible enough to move by hand, you could increase the charging ability by simply forcing cold air through the battery's cooling radiator.

All that requires is some sort of fitting which would conform to the front of the car and blow cold air in.

If this is automated (drive up, open your charge port, let the charging robot do the rest), then you can eliminate the need for the cable to be flexible.

Seems simple to me, but I'm probably missing something.

But I do think it's a lot easier to achieve than battery swapping.

I've been kind of assuming this, because it just seems right to me. But I am not a chemist and I really know little about batteries. So do we actually know this is true, with any level of authority?

As to forcing cold air through the radiator that sounds not workable. The cooling effect will likely not be distributed efficiently enough through the coolant system (by this, I mean you have to blow a lot of cold air to cool the system just a little). And if you are going to have a charging system that is able to access the radiators with cryogenic air, why not just hook up an IV direct to the cooling system and directly circulate cryogenic liquid to cool the batteries?

Regardless, the real problem isn't the limitations of the batteries. It's the inability to physically move that many electrons, that quickly without massive wires and charge ports. The grid probably can't handle it without the kind of investment you would make to provide energy to a factory or a large commercial building.

The cost to build highway SuperChargers with that sort of capability might well be far higher than building a swapping station.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Regardless, the real problem isn't the limitations of the batteries. It's the inability to physically move that many electrons, that quickly without massive wires and charge ports. The grid probably can't handle it without the kind of investment you would make to provide energy to a factory or a large commercial building.

The cost to build highway SuperChargers with that sort of capability might well be far higher than building a swapping station.

Aerovironment has previously demonstrated a 250kW grid connected charger (charging a Phoenix SUT with a 35kWh pack in 10 minutes) and SAE documents show 240kW is still practical in a cable format. So we still have room to triple the current charging rates while still using cables, assuming the battery can handle it.

The way buses do it (with a 500kW charger, 5.5x faster than the superchargers) is to use a buffer battery and an overhead charging bar. I don't expect we need that much. 240kW is plenty fast.

 

[cwerdna]

It must be battery swapping. Maybe in future models?

http://www.betterplace.com/How-it-Works/battery-switch-stations

Interesting that the above is your first post. To this I reply, look at Project Better Place - Page 68 and the posts that follow to see how well they've been doing...

 

[NotTarts]

Regardless, the real problem isn't the limitations of the batteries. It's the inability to physically move that many electrons, that quickly without massive wires and charge ports. The grid probably can't handle it without the kind of investment you would make to provide energy to a factory or a large commercial building.

The cost to build highway SuperChargers with that sort of capability might well be far higher than building a swapping station.

Both a battery swap and supercharger station capable of servicing a similar amount of cars require the same amount of power. The energy needed to replenish the depleted batteries loaded into the station doesn't come from nowhere.

That's my beef with swapping stations. Not only do they require the exact same amount of charging hardware and power as a supercharger station, but on top of that you've got battery costs, machinery costs, maintenance/staffing costs, etc.

 

[cb32000]

240 kw or even 500 kw is not enough to meet the "model s can recharge faster than filling a gas tank"
li am assuming we are not to interpret this as a 10% charge and a 100 gallon gas tank but at least an 80% charge in 5 minutes

 

[Royal TS(LA)]

Both a battery swap and supercharger station capable of servicing a similar amount of cars require the same amount of power. The energy needed to replenish the depleted batteries loaded into the station doesn't come from nowhere.

That's my beef with swapping stations. Not only do they require the exact same amount of charging hardware and power as a supercharger station, but on top of that you've got battery costs, machinery costs, maintenance/staffing costs, etc.

If there is a storage for, say, 3 batteries, and all of them are charged with 120 kW power to 85 kWh or 60 kWh when nobody needs them for a swap, where is the problem? I don't see any. If nobody uses the supercharger station, then the superswapper can handle the charging of the stored batteries. No problem here. Servicing could mostly be handled via remote/internet by the staff. If designed and handled correctly, there should seldom arise the need to send some technician to the superswapper location. We can be IMHO sure that Elon's business modeling abilities are not so broken that he'd fu** his business up with some sloppily designed mechanisms. Seeing what his SpaceX is doing with Grasshopper's progress, I have absolute faith in this one, too.

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240 kw or even 500 kw is not enough to meet the "model s can recharge faster than filling a gas tank"
li am assuming we are not to interpret this as a 10% charge and a 100 gallon gas tank but at least an 80% charge in 5 minutes

As calculated elsewhere, to fill a 85 kWh battery to 100% in 60 seconds, you need 5.1 megawatts (!) of power. This is utterly impossible. The solution must be swapping. I thought about how I'd do it mechanically and invented a surprisingly simple device. Coupled with some simple image processing (as e.g. used in semiconductor business for chip positioning, just some magnitudes rougher and cheaper), this is really no challenge to build. Image processing is the hardest part, actually. For that, more or less standard solutions exist. I can't see any show-stopper in this concept anywhere. I'm curious about the final solution they came up with :love:.

 

[cb32000]

Given the huge amount of power for supercharging in a few minutes, the fact that the current battery is over 1000 lbs, and the patent positions tesla has in a dual mode metal-air/li-ion battery solution I think I'm back to a new hybrid battery where the aluminum portion is exchanged and paid for by the driver as needed.

 

[scaesare]

I have it on good authority that the "answer is obvious in general concept, but unexpected in implementation."

I'd venture that means a clever swap methodology.

 

[Hache]

I'd venture that means a clever swap methodology.

You don't swap the battery under the car, but you swap the car above one battery to another ? :tongue:
Or your battery gets swapped while you're in an automatic car wash ?

 

[Royal TS(LA)]

You don't swap the battery under the car, but you swap the car above one battery to another ? :tongue:
Or your battery gets swapped while you're in an automatic car wash ?

No, your battery gets swapped as you watch TSLA stock rising in awe and don't realize it takes 20 minutes to swap the battery. :tongue: Elontainment at its best.

 

[action7981]

What if it doesn't actually swap the battery? The battery just drops down and direct connects to high voltage power line and super chilled coolant? Would it be possible to charge from 10% to 80% in less than 5mins?

 

[imherkimer]

What will likely be swapped is not the main 85 or 60kwh battery pack, but instead a lightweight metal air battery cartridge which will, as in a hybrid, recharge the main battery steadily and on demand.
Probably the connectors are already in place, and will be software activated. Tesla patent apps show a lot of work on hybrid battery arrangements.
A metal air battery cartridge will supplement main battery pack and augment range. Metal air is lighter, and would not require lifts or special equipment for installation: just replace the cartridge.
This would not interfere with supercharging or or other charging of the main battery pack. Elon's comment about "500 mile" range suggests the cartridge could enhance the range by around 200 miles, but some of the info available on metal air batteries suggests it could extend range well beyond that. Such a cartridge will not be necessary for most people"s day to day needs and even some long distances covered by supercharging stations.
Metal Air batteries will not be rechargeable by consumers, so swaps are necessary. You get to keep your original main battery pack.
The hole in the back of the "frunk" compartment would be a logical and convenient location for such a cartridge. Could be swapped out in a minute.
And there it is almost "right under your nose."

 

[Royal TS(LA)]

But what if you have a heavy suitcase blocking this space in the frunk? Are you required to keep the frunk empty for long distance trips? That'd suck, to be frank. And I can't imagine removing a heavy suitcase, lifting a 50 kg+ battery into this space, control the connections (that baby got juice), lift the suitcase back into the frunk and do some final checks under one minute without breaking a sweat. But who knows, maybe that counts as sports.. .

 

[deonb]

What if it doesn't actually swap the battery? The battery just drops down and direct connects to high voltage power line and super chilled coolant? Would it be possible to charge from 10% to 80% in less than 5mins?

60kWh in 5 mins? That's 720kWh/h just for a single vehicle, which would require 400V 2000 Amps. No supplier will be able to directly roll out 2000 Amps to a site. You'll have to get something like 2000V 400 Amp service, which means you would need a $100'000 transformer.

Also, the supply line to carry 2000 Amps would need to be about as think as the battery, so I doubt the battery can internally handle 2000 Amps, even if you douse it in Liquid Nitrogen.


On the other hand, maybe the battery has a way of accepting 4000V and the cells 5C. THAT would make it feasible, even with a hand-held cable, and is certainly possible to do using a tree of voltage dividers. But I can't imagine the battery would be designed with such a big range.

 

[Royal TS(LA)]

60kWh in 5 mins? That's 720kWh/h just for a single vehicle, which would require 400V 2000 Amps. No supplier will be able to directly roll out 2000 Amps to a site. You'll have to get something like 2000V 400 Amp service, which means you would need a $100'000 transformer.

Also, the supply line to carry 2000 Amps would need to be about as think as the battery, so I doubt the battery can internally handle 2000 Amps, even if you douse it in Liquid Nitrogen.


On the other hand, maybe the battery has a way of accepting 4000V and the cells 5C. THAT would make it feasible, even with a hand-held cable, and is certainly possible to do using a tree of voltage dividers. But I can't imagine the battery would be designed with such a big range.

For convenience, let's say 4000V was 10x the regular voltage. Internal resistance of the battery is assumed to be constant; it follows by P=U²/R that you'd still pump 100x the power into the battery, if nothing else changes. You'd still need to be able to charge with 100C. Won't happen.

 

[TD1]

What will likely be swapped is not the main 85 or 60kwh battery pack, but instead a lightweight metal air battery cartridge which will, as in a hybrid, recharge the main battery steadily and on demand.
Probably the connectors are already in place, and will be software activated. Tesla patent apps show a lot of work on hybrid battery arrangements.
A metal air battery cartridge will supplement main battery pack and augment range. Metal air is lighter, and would not require lifts or special equipment for installation: just replace the cartridge.
This would not interfere with supercharging or or other charging of the main battery pack. Elon's comment about "500 mile" range suggests the cartridge could enhance the range by around 200 miles, but some of the info available on metal air batteries suggests it could extend range well beyond that. Such a cartridge will not be necessary for most people"s day to day needs and even some long distances covered by supercharging stations.
Metal Air batteries will not be rechargeable by consumers, so swaps are necessary. You get to keep your original main battery pack.
The hole in the back of the "frunk" compartment would be a logical and convenient location for such a cartridge. Could be swapped out in a minute.
And there it is almost "right under your nose."

Thats the most likely thing.

Im amazed how much attention the Battery swapping gets, although it doesn't fit anything that Elon mentioned in the past.
Guys thats a Tesla Forum, please stop suggesting boring non-innovative ideas, thats not what Tesla or Musk stands for.

 

[deonb]

For convenience, let's say 4000V was 10x the regular voltage. Internal resistance of the battery is assumed to be constant; it follows by P=U²/R that you'd still pump 100x the power into the battery, if nothing else changes. You'd still need to be able to charge with 100C. Won't happen.

No, but there are still 7000 individual 3.3V cells in the battery. At 400V you can't just divide it evenly and just give each cell 0.5V to charge with - it won't work.

So I assume there must be something like a rolling wave of charge going across the battery.

With higher voltage you would just increase the number of cells that are charging simultaneously. You can in theory charge with 24'500 Volts and evenly divided you'll put out 3.5V per cell.