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Model S charge plug & socket adapters

Discussion in 'Model S: Battery & Charging' started by TEG, Nov 8, 2011.

  1. TEG

    TEG TMC Moderator

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    #1 TEG, Nov 8, 2011
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2011
    Various threads have speculated what charging options will come standard with Model S and what you would be available separately.

    We don't know for sure yet, but I will start off with some speculation just based on semi-educated guesses of what they might do, for North America:

    Standard:
    10kW on-board 1-phase charger with UMC2 including NEMA5-15 ([email protected]) and NEMA14-50 ([email protected]) plug adapters that snap in to the end of the UMC2 cable.
    J1772 adapter module that plugs directly into the Model S Tesla proprietary charge socket for public charging. (No need to use the UMC2 for this.)
    Included DC quick charge capability for public Tesla 90kW DC "superchargers".

    Optional:
    Extra plug end adapter modules for the UMC2... Various Dryer/Stove outlet types, etc.
    20kW ([email protected]) HPC2 for home / garage charging.
    2nd in-car 10kW charger for 20kW total rate AC charging from HPC2 and high current J1772s. (without this upgrade, the HPC2 would be no quicker than the UMC2.)
    Old style (Roadster) adapter so that older UMC1 and HPC1 can plug into Model S... (?) <== (I am surprised this hasn't been discussed too much yet.)

    Uncertain:
    Adapters to non-Tesla DC quick chargers - CHAdeMO, SAE, etc.

    Some people seem to assume that UMC1/HPC1/Roadster cable to new style, and CHAdeMO to new style would be a "given", but I am not so sure. I got no comment/commitment on either when asking about the possibility at the factory tour. If anything they seemed to be suggesting that CHAdeMO adapters wouldn't happen.


    Europe could be a different situation... Please leave all the "we need 3 phase" talk in those other threads.
     
  2. Kipernicus

    Kipernicus Model S Res#P1440

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    Super helpful summary! Thanks!
     
  3. gg_got_a_tesla

    gg_got_a_tesla Model S: VIN P65513, Model 3 Res Holder

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    #3 gg_got_a_tesla, Nov 8, 2011
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2011
    Excellent, as always, TEG! You are at 11,111 (invaluable) posts now! :smile:

    TEG-at-11111.png

    I think some distilled wisdom - around what % of potential Model S drivers might really need (HPC2 + additional onboard 10KW charger) vs simply (NEMA 14-50 + UMC2) or even just (NEMA5-15 + UMC2) given an x-mile commute with a y-mile battery pack sort of a thing - would also be great!
     
  4. widodh

    widodh Model S R231 EU

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    A CHAdeMO adapter would really benefit users, but I hope they are able to make it happen. I don't expect such adapters to be free, I actually expect them to be pretty expensive. A CHAdeMO adapter would probably sell for $1250 I guess.

    A HPC2 and the second charger won't be free either, about $2000 for the HPC and another $2000 for the second 10kW charger?
     
  5. gg_got_a_tesla

    gg_got_a_tesla Model S: VIN P65513, Model 3 Res Holder

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    I wonder if the second onboard 10kW charger can be installed after-the-fact? i.e. the owner may not have felt the need for it when configuring the car initially but, after some usage pattern, realizes that s/he needs the second onboard charger and the HPC2 (which should not be a problem, I guess) - do you think Tesla can easily put that in at one of their service centers?!
     
  6. TEG

    TEG TMC Moderator

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    I think there are differences of opinion, or at least uncertainty about what exactly it would entail and cost.
    I had noticed this post wrt CHAdeMO to Tesla adapter discussion:
    The physical connector to interface the DC power pins would probably be the easy part, but the signaling between the two could be a different matter.
    Electrically they communicate differently so there would need to be some sort of bi-directional "modem" type thing. But would Tesla firmware know how to natively speak "CHAdeMO charger protocol?" If not, there would probably need to be some sort of translation computer in the middle. Hard for me to project a price for such a device if they even decide to build one.

    I would predict yes - I think Model S without it would just have an empty space there, ready to have one added. The question would be "do they have the same wiring harness" with plugs there ready for the option to just drop in? It would add a little bit of cost to the Model S cars that don't have the extra charger, so the option could be at the mercy of the "bean counters". At some level they would have to justify the added expense of making them all "upgrade ready" by the expected revenue of the people that eventually decide to upgrade.
    I bet the 2nd 10kW would be quite a bit more than $2K by the way.
     
  7. jcstp

    jcstp Active Member

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    I think all Model S"s will have same wiring! Stupid expence of making different wiring harnesses!
    Even a plug to connect ONE charger is recomended I guess!
    Just with servicing in mind!
    If the charger defaults, just unplug, and put a new one! Changing all the wiring sounds absurd and expensive!
     
  8. TEG

    TEG TMC Moderator

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    Yeah, so there is hope that the ones without would be easy to upgrade later.
     
  9. Tommy

    Tommy Member

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    And an astute observer will note that TEG's 11,111 lifetime posts would have even the legendary explorer Juan Ponce de Leon in awe. :cool:
     
  10. stopcrazypp

    stopcrazypp Well-Known Member

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    According to wikipedia, CHAdeMO uses a Can-bus for signaling, much like the one in use in standard OBD-II ports.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CHAdeMO

    Since Tesla isn't part of CHAdeMO, there may be licensing issues too. There's licensing required for third parties to build a CHAdeMO charging station, but I'm not sure if it also applies to connectors.
     
  11. William13

    William13 Member

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    Teg, I agree with you about your post. Didn't he imply that Tesla owners might need to grey market a solution to the CHAdeMO adapter. He also said the problem was in the signaling. Although similar the signaling protocol was different and they might or might not do an official Tesla adapter.
     
  12. EVNow

    EVNow Active Member

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    CHAdeMO is available to anyone who pays the license fee. It is an "open" std, not a proprietary one.

    BTW, Phil (Ingineer) managed to reverse engineer CHAdeMO and make his range extender/dc charger contraption work. I'm sure Tesla can do it, if they want to.

    Infact using a simple AVR-CAN we may be able to build it ourselfs.

    My Nissan Leaf Forum View topic - Towable Turbine Powered CHAdeMO Charger

    capgen.jpg
     
  13. stopcrazypp

    stopcrazypp Well-Known Member

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    He's using the connector, not the protocol. A one-off like that probably avoids any major licensing issues (unless the TEPCO lawyers come knocking).

    It's very clear you need to enter a licensing agreement to build a CHAdeMO charger, because it is patented, according to this article:
    http://www.greencarcongress.com/2010/01/akerwade-20100115.html

    I don't know if the connector requires licensing to manufacture though.
     
  14. EVNow

    EVNow Active Member

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    CHAdeMO is like HDMI. It is a standard which requires licenses etc. But it is open in the sense anyone can get the license - and I believe for a company like Tesla the costs would be trivial (though not for someone like Phil).
     
  15. stopcrazypp

    stopcrazypp Well-Known Member

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    I believe Aker Wade actually joined CHAdeMO in order to get the license, but that may not be a huge issue if there isn't any kind of special criteria for joining. I also think it's not very likely for TEPCO to ask Phil to license at this point, unless he plans to build and sell that towable charger in volume.

    If CHAdeMO can be licensed royalty-free then it's (almost) a no brainer for Tesla to build the adapter. If not, then Tesla would more likely focus on their own connector (like the royalty-free DisplayPort to go with the HDMI analogy).

    I think it will mainly depend on how ambitious Tesla wants to be with their supercharger program. If Tesla is fine with CHAdeMO taking over, then they'll build the adapter if there is enough consumer demand for it. Once the adapter is offered and the Model S can charge using CHAdeMO, it'll become harder for Tesla to build the supercharger network (since the CHAdeMO will look much more attractive given it supports more cars while also supporting the Model S).

    It'll be interesting times seeing how quick charging develops (CHAdeMO vs Supercharger vs J1772 DC in North America / IEC 62196-4 in Europe).
     
  16. jcstp

    jcstp Active Member

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  17. TEG

    TEG TMC Moderator

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    #17 TEG, Dec 21, 2011
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2011
    When they say "240V dryer outlet" which do they mean? I would hope that they would include NEMA14-50 as it is good for use at campgrounds, and RV parks. But many home dryers use a different plug. Do they let you specify which one you want to be included?


    ---------------
    (By the way, I took the photo of Phil's trailer that you included...)
     
  18. EVNow

    EVNow Active Member

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    Yes, it is royalty free.

    http://www.chademo.com/pdf/CHAdeMO_Bylaw20110221.pdf

    My reading is that for Tesla supercharger is just a service - if they really want it to take off - they would have included it in 160 miler as an option.
     
  19. Doug_G

    Doug_G Lead Moderator

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    Someone posted in another thread an answer he got from Tesla (forget who and where... hundreds of postings in the last couple of days). The response was that it's NEMA 14-50.
     
  20. vfx

    vfx Well-Known Member

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    #20 vfx, Jun 9, 2012
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2012

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