Model S/Chevy Volt issue: Help Needed

[adelman]

Newbie question (and too lazy to look it up) but is there any forward/backwards compatibility between 14-30 and 14-50? I.e., could one have use of another?

The mechanical difference between a NEMA 14-30 (220V 30A) and NEMA 14-50 (220V 50A) is the shape of the neutral pin (which in the case of charging a 220V car, bears no load). The 14-50 is a straight blade, and the 14-30 is an "L" shape. Some of us *cough* have been known to take our 14-50 plugs and a hacksaw and cut the blade in half, leaving only the part that fits into either outlet. If you do this, you need to be careful to always set your current down below 30A (in the car) before charging from a 30A outlet; if you forget, at best you're going to pop a breaker and at worst, you'll start a fire.

Back to the OPs question --

I really *HATE* that Tesla has chosen yet another proprietary plug. They need to understand that compatibility isn't just about the car, but the charger, for the exact reason described. Why not just forgo the Tesla-brand charger and install a J1772 charger (or two) in your garage that supports the current you want and/or have available. They are available from ClipperCreek in any number of sizes. Just use the J1772 adapter that comes with the car to charge the car from these chargers (your superior Chevy doesn't need an adapter).

When my Model S arrives, I'll have four different types of EV in my garage that use 4 different charging standards (none of them J1772!). I took a hacksaw to my Roadster HPC and replaced the paddle with a J1772-compatible one. I'll use this same charger for both my Roadster and Model S using their respective J1772 adapters.

Personally, I don't think that the sale of a non-J1772 compliant car should qualify the manufacturer for California ZEV credits (which Tesla sells to other manufacturers).

 

[GSP]

Since Tesla will presumably have a technical solution for mounting a standard ISO 3-phase socket on the European Model S, they could also offer a standard 80 amp J1772 socket for North America and Japan. The Tesla propritary connector could be used for Supercharging, and also at your home if you want.

I think an adaptor-less J1772 would be a great option. I woud pay several hundred dollars if that is what it takes.

GSP

 

[jkirkebo]

Personally, I don't think that the sale of a non-J1772 compliant car should qualify the manufacturer for California ZEV credits (which Tesla sells to other manufacturers).

But the Model S is J1772 compliant. The adapter comes with the car.

 

[ggr]

But the Model S is J1772 compliant. The adapter comes with the car.

And with the adaptor, you get to have a tiny little hidden charge port, rather than a big flap somewhere. I find it cute, and I am sure it costs less than fitting a big metal door.

 

[spleen]

Didn't somebody mention once that high amperage J1772 was sort of a kludge? That it was originally specced at 30-40 amps and that the higher currents were added to the protocol/specs as an afterthought? I'm not aware of any supporting documentation but it seemed reasonable when I first heard it.

As for me, I prefer the smaller cleaner look of the Tesla connector as well as the hidden charge door on the Model S. As long as they supply an adapter going from J1772 to Tesla, what difference does it make? I'd also like to see Tesla release an adapter going from a Tesla connector to J1772 so that we can use a HPC or a UMC to charge other EVs.

 

[dhrivnak]

Didn't somebody mention once that high amperage J1772 was sort of a kludge?

I do not think that is the case. A j-1772 plug will handle 80 amps. Eaton along with Clipper Creek now offer 70 amp models and except for a slightly larger cord look just fine. If I were you I would lean toward a high powered J-1772 unit that could easily charge either car.

But if cost is an issue, and as others have mentioned, 40 amps at home is rarely needed. In 12,000 EV miles there is only twice I have used more than 40 amps. One of the times was when a fellow Roadster owner came to visit and charge. The other time I really did not need the faster rate in hindsight. Even though I can charge at 64 amps I only charge at 40 because even at that rate, I am ALWAYS full in the morning and I figure it is better on the power company.

 

[adelman]

But the Model S is J1772 compliant. The adapter comes with the car.

Semantics. Although every car comes with an adapter, no Tesla charger comes with the non-existant adapter of the other sex. Using a non-standard plug on the car encourages the installation of non-standard chargers. Those non-standard chargers can't charge other non-Tesla cars (which they could, had Tesla fully complied with the standard), and this is a factor that will inhibit the rollout of EVs.

Heck, even *TESLA* is suffering from this choice; the deployed 70A Roadster HPCs can't charge the Model S (and there is no adapter sold by Tesla to let them do so!).

 

[adelman]

And with the adaptor, you get to have a tiny little hidden charge port, rather than a big flap somewhere. I find it cute, and I am sure it costs less than fitting a big metal door.

..and you need a place to store the adapter, and one more step when you go to plug in.

 

[adelman]

Didn't somebody mention once that high amperage J1772 was sort of a kludge? That it was originally specced at 30-40 amps and that the higher currents were added to the protocol/specs as an afterthought? I'm not aware of any supporting documentation but it seemed reasonable when I first heard it.

J1772-2001 "aka AVCON" limited Level 2 (AC) power to 30A, but the signaling protocol contemplated higher current AC as well as DC through the same plug. The protocol was designed to be extensible.

J1772-2010 "aka J772" or "Jay-plug (which is so-named after Jay Friedland)" took advantage of this extensibility and raised the limit of AC charging to 80A. Unfortunately, it also effectively removed the DC charging extendability. The current (I believe still in draft form) DC fast charging spec uses a new set of contacts located below the existing ones, making the plug and socket much larger (and really ugly).

As for me, I prefer the smaller cleaner look of the Tesla connector as well as the hidden charge door on the Model S. As long as they supply an adapter going from J1772 to Tesla, what difference does it make? I'd also like to see Tesla release an adapter going from a Tesla connector to J1772 so that we can use a HPC or a UMC to charge other EVs.

It makes all the difference in the world if you need to charge a Leaf and all you have is a Tesla charger without said adapter.

 

[strider]

Heck, even *TESLA* is suffering from this choice; the deployed 70A Roadster HPCs can't charge the Model S (and there is no adapter sold by Tesla to let them do so!).

Wow, who pi$$ed in your Cheerios this evening? You need to calm down.

Both Roadster (which was developed before the current 1772 plug so there was no standard to follow) and Model S are ELECTRICALLY compatible w/ J1772. A simple adapter will allow either one to use J1772. Conversely, many of the public Tesla HPC's have been converted to J1772 (you simply lop off the Tesla plug and attach a J1772 plug). So I don't know what you're so wound up about...

 

[adelman]

Both Roadster (which was developed before the current 1772 plug so there was no standard to follow) and Model S are ELECTRICALLY compatible w/ J1772. A simple adapter will allow either one to use J1772. Conversely, many of the public Tesla HPC's have been converted to J1772 (you simply lop off the Tesla plug and attach a J1772 plug). So I don't know what you're so wound up about...

Maybe you don't understand the purpose of standards. This should all interoperate, and it doesn't. Yes, some public HPCs have been converted (I've converted my own). Not all, some. We have enough charging standards, we don't need to be adding more. I'm an EV "power user" that can handle this and makes my own adapters, but this mess just scares your average person off EVs.

Yes, the Roadster was developed prior to the current J1772 plug, but there was a draft-standard at the time that Tesla could have followed, and if the draft didn't match the final standard, they could have provided a retrofit kit for the cars (and I'd guess it would have cost less money than their adapter). Actually, the Roadster is not entirely electrically compatible with the standard; it chokes on a charger that offers 80A current, so even with the J1772 adapter it is not fully J1772-compliant. Tesla has been mum on providing a fix for this (now THIS happened because there wasn't a full J1772 standard out at the time).

 

[strider]

But it does interoperate, there are just some mechanical linkage differences. You know, kind of like the myriad of plugs we have on everything else that consumes power? Vacuum cleaners, welders, air compressors, clothes dryers, RVs, all of these have different plugs. Clothes dryers even have different plugs within models. Not to mention what happens when you start moving between countries.

NEMA connector - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So people are clearly used to the idea of different physical plugs and needing adapters to plug in their device. The Roadster was pre-standard so forget about it. I would assume that Model S will be electrically compatible with 80A J1772. So until we hear otherwise we should assume it is completely electrically compatible.

Finally, this is no different than the early days of ICEs. You had cars that ran on alcohol, kerosene (diesel), gasoline, etc. A person was expected to know what their car needed to run. Did it scare off some people? Maybe, but eventually ICEs were adopted (and we still have 4 pumps to choose from at most gas stations).

Mountain, see mole hill.

 

[smorgasbord]

My "If everything goes perfectly" plan had been to just install the HPWC and use it with both my wife's possible Model X and my Model S.

You don't want to be sharing a charger with 2 daily use cars in your garage. There's nothing worse than having to remember to swap the cable in the middle of the night. You're better off with two NEMA 14-50 outlets and using each car's UMC. That'll also protect you from any charging port changes, but I'll bet real money that Tesla won't change their charge port for Model X.