Model S crashes into gym

[McRat]

I don't think any of these people who have dealt with "unintended acceleration" will ever believe they did anything wrong until someone comes up with a device that mounts under the steering wheel, and video records feet/pedals.

I do take issue with the "...having reviewed the logs and that it shows that the accelerator (throttle) pedal was pressed during the accident." The logs don't show that. The logs do not show the ACTUAL position of the throttle pedal; they show the ELECTRONIC position of the accelerator pedal position sensor. That sensor is basically a potentiometer (a variable resistor). Anyone who has dealt with electronics has dealt with faulty pots before. They fail in one of three ways; they get "dirty", they fail open (0%), or they fail short (100%). If the pot failed "short", it would look (to the logs) like the throttle pedal was pressed to 100% (that she floored it).

Now, car companies that use electronic throttle position sensors normally have redundant pots built in, with logic in the system designed so that if one pot gives a bad reading, it gets ignored (or is given a lower priority). i.e. if one pot shows a throttle position of 100% and the other shows 15%, the car assumes the 100% reading is faulty. I can't/won't speak for Tesla's circuit design, but would be shocked if it was designed with a single-point-of-failure (especially something like a throttle position sensor, with is a moving part and will, by definition, eventually wear out).

Now, I'm not saying this happened here. I'm willing to bet some money that she pressed the wrong pedal.

I couldn't help notice that, in the article, the car owner (the husband) went on and on about how familiar he was with Teslas ("I have owned several Model S Tesla’s and currently own 1 P85D and 1 P90D"...yada, yada, yada). That's great, that's wonderful, you're an expert Tesla driver. However, YOU WEREN'T DRIVING.

Absolutely. Yes, the cause of unintentional acceleration is normally driver error.

However, there is some debate as to whether the unintentional acceleration in the Toyotas was a coding error or not. All we know is there were coding errors found in court, and Toyota paid a settlement, and made some changes. Whether the mistakes caused the crashes is not known.

A coding error is not going to show up in a datalog. The odds are slim that the problem lies in the coding, but thinking it's impossible is not correct.

 

[ggies07]

Saying Tesla needs to do something about this because of all these situations is like the starting on my senior year of high school the principal made a rule where no one could wear flip flops because some girl fell down the stairs one day wearing them........not my fault! Learn to use the product in its intended way.....

 

[Gizmotoy]

A proper AEB would do wonders and save drivers a lot of $$$.

I'm not sure that'd help. You really need to leave a way to ignore automated braking when the driver decides the car has made a mistake in applying the brakes. Logically, this would be to disable AEB when the user presses on the accelerator. It would be hard to differentiate a driver override from a driver hitting the wrong pedal.

 

[aesculus]

Personally I think creep mode on would only exacerbate these issues. Regen off is probably the only way to reduce them.

I do like the suggestions of Tesla having a parking lot mode that limits accelerator functions beyond x %.

 

[AmpedRealtor]

People are soooooo soooooo stooooopid. Don't they know that Tesla logs every driver action? You can't lie your way out of Model S accident.

 

[AB4EJ]

I would love to know the gender breakdown on this, i.e., the proportion of unintended acceleration crashes by the sex of the driver. Could facts be sexist?

 

[ecarfan]

"splain to me what Creep mode is. Tell me it is not trench coat in an alley.

When that mode is "on" the car behaves like a traditional automatic transmission vehicle: when in Drive with your foot not touching any pedals, on level ground the car will slowly move forward.

 

[ecarfan]

Don't they know that Tesla logs every driver action?

I am sure that many Tesla owners do not know that the car is logging a vast amount of detail every second they drive. Many cars do not do that so people aren't used to taking that into consideration. It has nothing do with their "stupidity" as you put it. It has to do with what people's experience has been with their cars over a lifetime of driving.

 

[brucet999]

I agree with @Larry Hutchinson. I use creep for these kinds if situations.

I don't understand. How would creep keep you from hitting the wrong pedal? Below 5mph, there is no regen anyway, so the next operation is going to be the brake pedal in either case.

 

[lklundin]

I would love to know the gender breakdown on this, i.e., the proportion of unintended acceleration crashes by the sex of the driver. Could facts be sexist?

No, but some love of the differences between the sexes could be.

 

[swaltner]

As drivers, we have to be careful with this. It's amazing how quickly a high-HP vehicle can accelerate, especially when it catches you off guard. The animated GIF from the original article shows it doing just that at the point where the brakes would have been applied.

One time, driving the Ariel Atom home from work, as I was approaching a stop light in town with traffic ahead of me, I pressed the brake, but had weird foot position and caught the edge of the accelerator pedal also. Instant reaction was to press even harder. It felt like I was rocketing forward since it wasn't the expected slowdown. It took a second to have the brain catch up with what was going on and reposition my foot on JUST the brake pedal. If I had been tailgating or in a parking lot, this would have been an accident instead of just an elevated heart rate for a minute.

 

[Gizmotoy]

I am sure that many Tesla owners do not know that the car is logging a vast amount of detail every second they drive. Many cars do not do that so people aren't used to taking that into consideration. It has nothing do with their "stupidity" as you put it. It has to do with what people's experience has been with their cars over a lifetime of driving.

And, additionally, you also have to take Tesla's word that the logs are both functioning correctly, and that the logs actually reflect the behavior being suggested. Tesla is not an unbiased third party, and they have incentive to protect their reputation and pin the accident on the driver no matter what actually occurred. I don't think they're doing that, and they'd have serious trouble on their hands if they did and got caught, but in general it's probably not wise to assume a company is being completely honest when their bottom line is at stake. Especially for these "minor-news-style" events that don't get the same heat from regulators as the Autopilot stuff.

 

[Pdub2015]

And, additionally, you also have to take Tesla's word that the logs are both functioning correctly, and that the logs actually reflect the behavior being suggested. Tesla is not an unbiased third party, and they have incentive to protect their reputation and pin the accident on the driver no matter what actually occurred. I don't think they're doing that, and they'd have serious trouble on their hands if they did and got caught, but in general it's probably not wise to assume a company is being completely honest when their bottom line is at stake. Especially for these "minor-news-style" events that don't get the same heat from regulators as the Autopilot stuff.

I have to disagree. If Tesla's logs were to uncover a technical flaw that actually caused unintended acceleration, it would be to the company's benefit to come clean and issue an immediate recall to fix the flaw before more accidents occur. I don't subscribe to the theory that all corporations tend to hide/cover up negative information no matter what. But I'm a glass half full kind of guy...

 

[Gizmotoy]

I have to disagree. If Tesla's logs were to uncover a technical flaw that actually caused unintended acceleration, it would be to the company's benefit to come clean and issue an immediate recall to fix the flaw before more accidents occur. I don't subscribe to the theory that all corporations tend to hide/cover up negative information no matter what. But I'm a glass half full kind of guy...

Awfully optimistic for sure, but then again I didn't say what you imply I did, either. In any case, it's possible to both correct an issue that was found and not say anything about it. Indeed most of our minor updates have lacked any release notes whatsoever.

Either way, I find it difficult to accept the assertion that I should implicitly trust any party involved in the incident. I don't implicitly trust driver's account, nor Tesla's. Tesla has data, so currently they win as some data is better than no data, but I don't think it's wise to implicitly trust that data either given it's controlled from start to finish by one of the parties involved.

Once a third party is involved in the investigation, and can review the data, that's great. But that doesn't happen for these minor incidents.

 

[Drivin]

The logs don't lie --

Have the logs been released or is this "trust us, we looked at the logs".

Many companies say things like "we looked at our data and this couldn't have happened".

What did GM first say when the claims of ignition lock or when other companies were accused of sudden acceleration issues?

 

[Btrflyl8e]

This happens practically every day somewhere here in FL... Hitting the accelerator instead of the brake. Not specific to any make of car...

 

[BluestarE3]

This happens practically every day somewhere here in FL... Hitting the accelerator instead of the brake. Not specific to any make of car...

Yeah, but when it involves a Tesla, then it seems to automatically warrant a headline. I also find it interesting that this incident is referred to as "autonomous acceleration" (instead of the more commonly used term "unintended acceleration"), as if Autopilot or autonomous driving features had something to do with it.

 

[Larry Hutchinson]

I don't understand. How would creep keep you from hitting the wrong pedal? Below 5mph, there is no regen anyway, so the next operation is going to be the brake pedal in either case.

It would not absolutely prevent brake pedal confusion, but in creep mode you pull into or out of a parking spot with your foot on the brake earlier, I think. Disclaimer: in 3.5 years with an M3, I have never tried non-creep as I consider it dangerous.

And while I am on the subject, I don't like how my 2016 refresh makes me either double tap the brakes or tap the accelerator when starting up after parking.

 

[pdxgibby]

Have the logs been released or is this "trust us, we looked at the logs".

Many companies say things like "we looked at our data and this couldn't have happened".

What did GM first say when the claims of ignition lock or when other companies were accused of sudden acceleration issues?

I certainly haven't seen the logs -- I doubt they have been released publicly. My point is that if Tesla were to lie about the logs, and the logs ended up under subpoena, and they showed differently Tesla would undermine it's reputation in such a drastic way that it could be irreparable. I assume that the logs show that the driver pressed the accelerator pedal -- but I trust Tesla's response.

 

[int32_t]

Been there, done that. The car functioned properly afterwards so it obviously wasn't the car's fault. I was pulling into a parking spot and something weird happened down where my feet were. I can't remember which pedal(s) my right foot was on and can't figure out what happened, but the end result was that the car just kept moving (slowly, thankfully) and crunched into the front steps at the end of the parking space. I felt frozen and didn't know what to do even though I could have hit the clutch or the brake to stop the vehicle.

Since then I have a lot more sympathy for people who claim their Tesla crashed on its own. That type of event is freaky and unnerving, and it's hard to recall what really happened afterward. Besides, as a personal thing I'd much rather blame the machine and get off the hook myself. But it's pretty obvious it's the driver's fault, and in the end I took responsibility. If you see somebody creeping hopelessly slowly into a parking spot in the future ... that's me.