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Model S Decimates Large Premium/Luxury Car Market

You are derailing the thread actually - calling someone out in front of other people for their misuse of a word is a faux pas. Nevertheless you are correct - she did misuse "decimate" in her sentence. She should have said "...decimates the competition" OR "...dominates the market."

Despite you being correct, I still find it cringe worthy that you bothered to be "that guy" and call her out for it. In the overall scheme of things she wins, you lose.

Interesting that you're calling him out for calling her out. Kind of a paradox, don't you think? :wink:
 
Benf, Where are you getting a $10,000 discount????

$7,500 federal, $2,500 state (in CA). I realize not all states have discounts, but more Tesla's are sold in California than anywhere else (same with Mercedes S-class), so it seemed fair.

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You are only partially right. There may be previous Prius or Odyssey owners buying the S but there are many Audi, BMW, MB or even Porsche owners like myself who replaced their car with a MS. Even for the former type buyers the fact is still those luxury or performance brands could not attract people usually don't spend that much on a car but Tesla could. Majority of them are buying it because it's such a compelling car not because it's an EV. Tesla has beaten everyone in its own game.

I replaced my BMW 550i with the Model S. I think the 550 (and E-class) are more of a fair comparison to the Model S in terms of luxury features, size, and price. Yet, mysteriously, those ~$75k cars aren't on the list, because somehow a Model S is a "luxury" car and a BMW 550i isn't. That was my point.

We can say all day long that what makes the Model S a luxury car is that it is vibration free and silent, but in reality it's vibration free because it's an EV, and the car is far from silent. The wind and road noise in the Model S is terrible compared to a "luxury" car, so I reject that argument.

The Model S is AWESOME, but it's a "luxury" car in the same way that a 5 series or E class is a "luxury" car, and it should be compared to the appropriate market segment. I understand some people spend $130-$140k on a Model S, but a bigger rear motor and a fuse upgrade doesn't make it any more of a "luxury" car either. Sorry in advance to the people who hate me being honest about what the Model S is or isn't.
 
I know everyone likes to compare the Model S to the 7-series and S-class, but I just don't really get it. The Model S starts at $70k ($60k with rebate). The 7-series starts at $81k. The S-class starts at $95k. The 7-series and S-class are considerably more luxurious than a Model S. The build quality, material quality, and just overall creature-comforts are not anywhere near luxury car standards in a Model S. So why is it being compared to them?

The 7-series and S-class are both 10 inches longer than the Model S. Strictly based on size, it's a lot more similar to a 5-series or an E-class.

So the cheaper, less luxurious, smaller Model S is outselling the more expensive, more luxurious, bigger luxury cars? Ok...

I'm not taking anything away from Tesla, it's still quite an accomplishment, but the comparison is simply not apples to apples.
I've been trying to make that argument for a long while. Nice to see someone else coming to the same conclusions. :)
 

WannabeOwner

Well-Known Member
Nov 2, 2015
6,958
3,728
Suffolk, UK
Does model S avoid congestion charges in London?

Yes, but you have to apply annually and pay a £ 10 p.a. fee, so not much good for someone outside London making occasional, unanticipated, trips into London

Discounts exemptions - Transport for London

"You also qualify if your vehicle is registered with the DVLA and has a fuel type of 'electric'"

P.S. there is also this:

Electric cars to use bus lanes in UK cities | Environment | The Guardian

"UK cities are to allow electric car drivers to beat congestion by using bus lanes, as part of a government drive to encourage uptake of the cleaner vehicles."

I expect that will require an annual fee too!
 
I know everyone likes to compare the Model S to the 7-series and S-class, but I just don't really get it. The Model S starts at $70k ($60k with rebate). The 7-series starts at $81k. The S-class starts at $95k. The 7-series and S-class are considerably more luxurious than a Model S. The build quality, material quality, and just overall creature-comforts are not anywhere near luxury car standards in a Model S. So why is it being compared to them?

It depends on how you define "luxury"

"a material object, service, etc., conducive to sumptuous living, usually a delicacy, elegance, or refinement of living rather than a necessity"

Any 100K+ personal car, certainly fits in this category. The $ that are spent building the MS go into the technology rather than the bits of fancy wood and leather. Whether you prefer the high end frippery of a S series, the performance/style of a Ferrari, or tech showboat like the Model S is really just a matter of choice. But they're all "luxury" vehicles by any but the most narrow of definitions.

The real question is "does the S compete with the S-series" and other similar vehicles. Yes... it certainly does. People do buy the Tesla instead of a similarly priced BWM / Mercedes / whatever. Have Mercedes / BMW lost some high-end sales because of Tesla? Yes... certainly. Will that continue in the future? That's a better question. Eventually the Germans will catch up and produce a comparable EV for a similar price. Tesla will absolutely have to step up their game in terms of the "creature comforts" before that happens.
 

Twiglett

Single pedal driver
Oct 3, 2014
3,814
4,361
Austin
It depends on how you define "luxury"

"a material object, service, etc., conducive to sumptuous living, usually a delicacy, elegance, or refinement of living rather than a necessity"

Any 100K+ personal car, certainly fits in this category. The $ that are spent building the MS go into the technology rather than the bits of fancy wood and leather. Whether you prefer the high end frippery of a S series, the performance/style of a Ferrari, or tech showboat like the Model S is really just a matter of choice. But they're all "luxury" vehicles by any but the most narrow of definitions.

The real question is "does the S compete with the S-series" and other similar vehicles. Yes... it certainly does. People do buy the Tesla instead of a similarly priced BWM / Mercedes / whatever. Have Mercedes / BMW lost some high-end sales because of Tesla? Yes... certainly. Will that continue in the future? That's a better question. Eventually the Germans will catch up and produce a comparable EV for a similar price. Tesla will absolutely have to step up their game in terms of the "creature comforts" before that happens.
That is a telling perspective.
What Tesla brings to the luxury definition is a Silicon Valley view of what tech really is. That is a dramatically different viewpoint from the majority of the ICE manufacturers and it has really caught them off guard.
The technology of making compelling head units etc has always resulted in appalling results like MyFordTouch. BMW iDrive is a good attempt (for a car) but is easily outpaced by even the cheapest smartphone.
The car buying public are fed up of getting cars with tech that is years out of date compared to a four year old iPhone.
The thought that you have to keep visiting your local dealer to get Nav updates is archaic.
It really is a different definition of what "luxury" means
 

Spidy

Active Member
Feb 7, 2015
1,365
1,106
EU
That is a telling perspective.
What Tesla brings to the luxury definition is a Silicon Valley view of what tech really is. That is a dramatically different viewpoint from the majority of the ICE manufacturers and it has really caught them off guard.
The technology of making compelling head units etc has always resulted in appalling results like MyFordTouch. BMW iDrive is a good attempt (for a car) but is easily outpaced by even the cheapest smartphone.
The car buying public are fed up of getting cars with tech that is years out of date compared to a four year old iPhone.
The thought that you have to keep visiting your local dealer to get Nav updates is archaic.
It really is a different definition of what "luxury" means
Are you speaking of personal experience here? Because most Model S owners also seem to say their phone outpaces the car browser. And the Model X got the same display as the Model S I thought?

Tesla Priorities: Refine Autopilot or Fix Everything Else?
 
It depends on how you define "luxury"

Yes, that is exactly my point. If you define luxury to include the Model S, it should ALSO include the 5-series and E-class. That list doesn't. Conveniently, when you add those other "luxury" cars in to the mix, Tesla is nowhere close to "decimating" anything. Mercedes sold over 60,000 E-class cars in 2015 just in the US. Tesla is doing very well, and certainly shaking things up. I love them for it. But they didn't gobble up 25% of the "luxury" car market unless you specifically exclude cars that are more of a direct comparison to the Model S than most of the cars on that list.
 

RobStark

Well-Known Member
Jul 2, 2013
11,348
59,663
Los Angeles, USA
The Model S and S-Class both have an Average Selling Price of $106k.

The BMW 7 Series,Audi A8 and Lexus LS all have lower ASPs.

For ICEv sold at dealerships MSRPs don't mean very much.

The Tesla is wider than any other F-Segment car. And has more usable interior volume because the space around the transaxle tunnel in an ICEv is unusable.

And Model S has much more usable interior volume than E Segment cars like the 5 Series and E Class. They also have much lower ASPs.

In price sold and usable interior volume Model S competes head on with other F-Segment cars.
 
The Model S and S-Class both have an Average Selling Price of $106k.

The BMW 7 Series,Audi A8 and Lexus LS all have lower ASPs.

For ICEv sold at dealerships MSRPs don't mean very much.

The Tesla is wider than any other F-Segment car. And has more usable interior volume because the space around the transaxle tunnel in an ICEv is unusable.

And Model S has much more usable interior volume than E Segment cars like the 5 Series and E Class. They also have much lower ASPs.

In price sold and usable interior volume Model S competes head on with other F-Segment cars.

Interior volume is not the only thing. Seats matter a lot and in that respect, the MS is laughable compared to a bmw 5 series. MS front seats are bad (incl the next gen) and the rear "bench" is just a joke when compared.

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Ohh. And as soon as bmw produces a 5series with electric drive I'll switch to that in a heartbeat. Teslas half ass way of doing most things are starting to nag me a lot. And that is without any real troubles with my MS.

I might even consider a plug in hybrid if that's what's available...
 

mspohr

Well-Known Member
Jul 27, 2014
11,787
15,576
California
Ohh. And as soon as bmw produces a 5series with electric drive I'll switch to that in a heartbeat. Teslas half ass way of doing most things are starting to nag me a lot. And that is without any real troubles with my MS.

I might even consider a plug in hybrid if that's what's available...
The other automakers half-assed way of making electric cars will nag you a lot.
The best you'll probably get for some time will be a plug-in hybrid... a sad compromise but that's the best they can do without the Supercharger network.
 
Yes, that is exactly my point. If you define luxury to include the Model S, it should ALSO include the 5-series and E-class. That list doesn't. Conveniently, when you add those other "luxury" cars in to the mix, Tesla is nowhere close to "decimating" anything. Mercedes sold over 60,000 E-class cars in 2015 just in the US. Tesla is doing very well, and certainly shaking things up. I love them for it. But they didn't gobble up 25% of the "luxury" car market unless you specifically exclude cars that are more of a direct comparison to the Model S than most of the cars on that list.

I don't think that the E and 5 really fit into the same category. My point was that you can't define a luxury car by how shiny the wood is, or how soft that the leather is. People have differing views of what "luxury" is, and so the only meaningful metric is average selling price. By that metric, the Model S is right up there with the S Series. If you want to be more specific, in the category of 100K+ sedans, the Model S is definitely shaking things up.
 
I don't think that the E and 5 really fit into the same category. My point was that you can't define a luxury car by how shiny the wood is, or how soft that the leather is. People have differing views of what "luxury" is, and so the only meaningful metric is average selling price. By that metric, the Model S is right up there with the S Series. If you want to be more specific, in the category of 100K+ sedans, the Model S is definitely shaking things up.

If you're going to go on that metric then you need to exclude the lower priced Model s variants and perhaps even use Tesla's own guidance on how to look at the cost of buying the car (i.e., net of gas savings and incentives). Right now, the Tesla website shows the cash price for the 70D after gas savings and incentives at $58k, which is pretty much in the middle of the E/5 series range. Even the 90D is within the range of the higher priced E/5 models using this metric.

Under your metric, only P85D/P90D sales should be compared to 7/S class sales.
 

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