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Model S Decimates Large Premium/Luxury Car Market

The Model S and S-Class both have an Average Selling Price of $106k.

.

Where did you get the S-Class ASP from?

ASP for an S600 is $175k, for a S63 with no options, ASP is 160k.
(True Car)

106k ASP?
I must be shopping at the wrong dealers.

LOL.

Point of all this is what is the right cross-shopping - when someone choses a Tesla, what car did they decide not to buy?
 
If Tesla built over 50,000 Model S's in 2015 why is the chart showing sales of 25k for the same time period? Can anybody explain this or tell me where the other 25k went? How/why are sales only 25k in this chart?


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If Tesla built over 50,000 Model S's in 2015 why is the chart showing sales of 25k for the same time period? Can anybody explain this or tell me where the other 25k went? How/why are sales only 25k in this chart?

US Sales are about 50% of total sales.

It would be good to know worldwide sales for the other brands since some are focusing on sales in Europe and Asia.
 

RobStark

Well-Known Member
Jul 2, 2013
11,439
60,089
Los Angeles, USA
Interior volume is not the only thing. Seats matter a lot and in that respect, the MS is laughable compared to a bmw 5 series. MS front seats are bad (incl the next gen) and the rear "bench" is just a joke when compared.


Ohh. And as soon as bmw produces a 5series with electric drive I'll switch to that in a heartbeat. Teslas half ass way of doing most things are starting to nag me a lot. And that is without any real troubles with my MS.

I might even consider a plug in hybrid if that's what's available...

Any one attribute is never the whole thing.

Model S has advantages and disadvantages vs the competition. Like every other automaker.

The complaint by Europeans that Tesla seats are inferior are laughable.

Tesla's Next Gen Seats are the exact same seats made by Recaro that are in Mercedes E-Class sans cooling.

I have never heard of any European say Mercedes E Class has sub par seats.

I can't wait for the incessant complainers to leave Tesla.

- - - Updated - - -

Where did you get the S-Class ASP from?

ASP for an S600 is $175k, for a S63 with no options, ASP is 160k.
(True Car)

106k ASP?
I must be shopping at the wrong dealers.

LOL.

Point of all this is what is the right cross-shopping - when someone choses a Tesla, what car did they decide not to buy?


The volume S-Class leader is the S-550 that starts at $95,960 before dealer discounts.
 
The complaint by Europeans that Tesla seats are inferior are laughable.

Tesla's Next Gen Seats are the exact same seats made by Recaro that are in Mercedes E-Class sans cooling.

I have never heard of any European say Mercedes E Class has sub par seats.

.

Based on that, the right comparison is the Model E to Tesla's with the Next Gen seats. Why compare it to the S whose seats are a lot better than the E?
A 70D with taxpayer gifts and gas savings is far closer in price to an E than an S.

Maybe Europeans were complaining about the non-Next Gen seats - oh, and just because you didn't hear it, doesn't mean it isn't true.
 

RobStark

Well-Known Member
Jul 2, 2013
11,439
60,089
Los Angeles, USA
Where did you get that number for the Model S?

Read the investors forum on here.

Elon had stated it a few times on earnings calls.

Sometimes it goes up a 1-2 thousand in a given quarter and sometimes down a 1-2 thousand in a quarter.

- - - Updated - - -

Based on that, the right comparison is the Model E to Tesla's with the Next Gen seats. Why compare it to the S whose seats are a lot better than the E?
A 70D with taxpayer gifts and gas savings is far closer in price to an E than an S.

Maybe Europeans were complaining about the non-Next Gen seats - oh, and just because you didn't hear it, doesn't mean it isn't true.

There are all kinds of attributes. In total the Model S compares with the F Segment vehicles.

Even the European Commission agrees and places the Model S in the F segment.

The volume leader for S Class,the S-550, is much cheaper than a Model S P90D.

Inferior in acceleration and handling.

We can all cherry pick one feature or data set.

In total Model S most fits in with other F Segment cars.

Which include A8,7 Series, and Panamera.

Not only the ICEv F Segment leader S Class.
 
The volume S-Class leader is the S-550 that starts at $95,960 before dealer discounts.

Yes, I know that so what does that have to do with an ASP of the entire S Class of $106k? Where did you get that number???

The S-550 STARTS there, but I doubt the overwhelming majority of cars sold don't have any options, nor do stripped down versions represent such an overwhelming majority that it would effectively wipe out the numbers for the S63, S600, fully loaded versions, etc.

But I am happy to be proven wrong - where did you get the ASP of the S-Class of $106k??

If that is true, they are wasting manufacturing and R&D for all the other cars in the S-class and should not offer any options since people don't seem to be buying those.
 
The volume leader for S Class,the S-550, is much cheaper than a Model S P90D

We can all cherry pick one feature or data set.



Wow.
Did you actually write those two sentences?

You take a stripped down "volume leader" and compare it to the top of the line Tesla and then point out that people can cherry pick data!
And then you get your data wrong....LOL. You need to find better cherries.

S-550: 95,650 (with no options)
S P90D: 91,200 (with no options)

Did you find the source yet for the ASP of $106k for the S-Class?
 

ecarfan

Well-Known Member
Moderator
It is clear to me that the Model S is on balance comparable to the cars it is listed with in the chart included in Tesla's latest shareholder letter when you look at the S ASP and it's balance of features compared to the competitors in that chart. Nit picking about Next Gen seats vs. MB S class seats is not constructive.
In reality the Model S is in a class by itself: it has no direct competitors but clearly buyers cross shop it with the high end German/Japanese/British cars.
 
It is clear to me that the Model S is on balance comparable to the cars it is listed with in the chart included in Tesla's latest shareholder letter when you look at the S ASP and it's balance of features compared to the competitors in that chart. Nit picking about Next Gen seats vs. MB S class seats is not constructive.
In reality the Model S is in a class by itself: it has no direct competitors but clearly buyers cross shop it with the high end German/Japanese/British cars.

The Model S definitely competes in the upper end premium car segment. When we buy a Model S, it will be displacing an S Class sale for Mercedes.

Our ideal car would be an S Class interior and seats with a Model S drivetrain, battery, technology, and LCD control surface but to us the driving experience and EV performance of the Model S along with all the technology that Tesla has developed is more important than an S Class blowing scented air up our derriere :)
 

Spidy

Active Member
Feb 7, 2015
1,365
1,106
EU
Read the investors forum on here.

Elon had stated it a few times on earnings calls.

Sometimes it goes up a 1-2 thousand in a given quarter and sometimes down a 1-2 thousand in a quarter.
I do and never came across that number or something around that. If that would be the case then every 2nd Tesla would be a performance Model. Even a 90D that's not loaded to the maximum would drag that average DOWN. Maybe they had that early in 2015 due to the launch of the D Models, but I highly doubt it stayed that high all over 2015.
 
It is clear to me that the Model S is on balance comparable to the cars it is listed with in the chart

The point is that we don't actually have any cross-sell data.
Of course some people considering a S-Class will opt for an MS.
I know people who were looking at an E-Class and opted for a MS, another friend looking at a M5 went for a MS.
A former prius owner stretch way outside his budget to do the same. (oh look, I have anecdotes too!)

Since the big decline in 2009, the luxury sedan segment has had trouble for a while in the US with either people going for luxury SUV/CUV or to lower priced midsized "luxury" cars.

Tesla has done a great job getting to 25k cars in the US, but it is a bit silly to think that it came from "decimating" a segment that has been in decline. Some came from this segment, some from people who weren't going to upgrade for a while, and jumped at this, from mid-size luxury, from sports car enthusiasts, as EV enthusiasts... As someone pointed out earlier, the MS is a unique car in it's combo of performance, features, social purpose, etc.

This is only an interesting discussion in so much as one thinks about the following: if they hit the 90k unit number this year and half of those are again selling in the US, where are they coming from and how? Are they going to further "decimate" this segment as some said they did for this segment? Doubt it. 100k units with 40k coming from any one vendor? Not going to happen without incredible price competition and marketing war. (e.g. $$$/profit loss/win for consumers).

I think this is why the E is so important, it can't come fast enough.
 

vgrinshpun

Well-Known Member
Supporting Member
Apr 5, 2013
5,899
22,944
PA
I know everyone likes to compare the Model S to the 7-series and S-class, but I just don't really get it. The Model S starts at $70k ($60k with rebate). The 7-series starts at $81k. The S-class starts at $95k. The 7-series and S-class are considerably more luxurious than a Model S. The build quality, material quality, and just overall creature-comforts are not anywhere near luxury car standards in a Model S. So why is it being compared to them?

The 7-series and S-class are both 10 inches longer than the Model S. Strictly based on size, it's a lot more similar to a 5-series or an E-class.

So the cheaper, less luxurious, smaller Model S is outselling the more expensive, more luxurious, bigger luxury cars? Ok...

I'm not taking anything away from Tesla, it's still quite an accomplishment, but the comparison is simply not apples to apples.

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On a side note, is there any data on the number of people who actually cross-shop the S-class and the Model S? I remember seeing something about one of the most popular previous cars for Model S owners is a Prius. I find it hard to believe that Prius owners are considering an S-class and choosing a Model S instead. It just seems like a different market and different segment of people. I know when you look at that table it looks like Tesla is stealing luxury market share, but isn't it possible that the luxury market is simply shrinking and Tesla is finding buyers from other segments?

It just seems like most people buy the Model S because it's the only long-range BEV out there, and for many, the only EV worth driving. I find it highly suspect that people are buying the Model S because it's a "luxury" car. Especially when you look at polls on this forum where people tell you this is the most expensive car they've ever purchased, or that they would have never spent anywhere near this kind of money on any other car. Those aren't "luxury" car buyers, but they seem representative of the typical Tesla owner.

Your personal preferences and opinion notwithstanding, Model S is classified by German Federal Motor Vehicle Office (Kraftfahrt-Bundesamt, KBA) as a vehicle that belongs to Oberklasse, along with MB S-series, BMW 7-Series, Audi A8 etc. The vehicles you are trying to stretch your comparison to - MB E-Class, BMW 5 DO NOT belong to Oberklasse.

Additionally, the Model S equipped similarly to MB S-Class - 90D - is $2,000 MORE expensive than MB S-Class, NOT less expensive as you claim (see major specs and pricing below). Comparing Model S to comparably equipped BMW 550 reveals that 90D is $20K MORE EXPENSIVE than BMW 550 - not in the same class, making sales comparisons meaningless.

The comparison shown by Tesla in their shareholder letter is absolutely valid one, and your are just wrong in attempts to dismiss it.

I agree with you pointing out that MB S Class has more opulent cabin, but this does not make comparison shown in Tesla shareholders letter less valid, and does not make it any less striking.

In fact, when you consider that Model S is shorter and less opulent than MB S-Class, while costing about $2K more, but, nevertheless, outsold S-Class handily, taking 25% of the Oberklasse segment in US, the Tesla achievement becomes more extraordinary, not less, and is a testament of the fact that value meter of the 25% of the buyers in this segment just has different tuning than yours. :smile:

Put another way, I am absolutely sure that any US MB or BMW dealer would love to sell MB S-Class or BMW 7 Series to anybody willing to spend around $100K on a car, and yet, 25% of people like that in US instead put their hard earned money for a car that did not exist 3.5 years ago, from a company that is just over one decade old...

I am sure that some inhabitants of European board rooms are as bewildered by this as you seem to be, and likely suffer from elevated heart rate and indigestion as a result of it...

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Ok, here you go, actual cross-sell data.
So their sales did not come from decimating the luxury segment.


After averaging national pricing data, the report said owners paid an approximately 80% premium on their Tesla cars compared to the average selling price of their previous cars....The results also showed that if drivers had not purchased a Tesla some would have rejected going the luxury car route and instead bought a car with an average selling price as low as $30,000, once again indicating the high premium drivers give Tesla. Of those surveyed only 13% of respondents said they would have purchased a vehicle with an average selling price higher than the Tesla Model S, which begins at $75,000 for the 70D version.


http://www.thestreet.com/story/13198798/1/the-average-tesla-driver-isnt-who-youd-expect.html


It would have been nice for Tesla to actually talk about this, rather than trying to make a comparison to a market that only 13% of people said they would buy a more expensive car.

It would at least show that they have a lot more headroom for growth rather than trying to "decimate" a declining and relatively small market segment.

Who said that Tesla isn't into marketing? LOL!!
 
Well, and that IS the point - in 2015 manufacturers of the Oberklasse vehicles failed to attract 25% of US buyers that are willing to spend $100K on a car, while suffering DECLINING YoY sales...

^. This.

The Germans are still in denial that for around the same price range and with at least about 250 miles of range, once customers experience a high performance all electric drivetrain, few will be interested in an archaic ICE car.

I've gotten quite a few of my friends to experience a Model S and to this date every single person has told me after driving a Model S that their next car will be a Tesla. Many of my friends buy expensive cars but they are frugal in holding on to cars for a long period of time so the pain felt by the Germans is just beginning as there are a whole segment of more buyers who have decided that a Tesla will be their next car. As more potential customers experience how it feels to drive a modern high performance car that happens to be an EV.
 
Well, and that IS the point.

No, that is not the point.


The point is the title of this thread and the marketing spin is completely wrong.

Tesla did not decimate that segment.
They created a product that people were willing to buy at a substantial premium to their previous purchase.
If Tesla did not exist, the overwhelming majority of those buyers would have purchased a $30k car, not a $130k S Class and the decline in this segment would have continued.


BTW, not sure where you got $100k from - are you claiming that that is the average price a Tesla buyer pays after incentives? But it is true that if a person wants to pay $58k for a 70, that Mercedes did fail to sell them a $120k S Class.... so??? Apples != Oranges.
 

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