Model S driver filmed sleeping in traffic!! Calling All Forum Safety Nannies!!

[glusc2002]

Please don't cross post this to every relevant thread. It makes it hard to respond.

I wanted to get multiple opinions from all owners, and not that i was purposely or intentionally trying to inconvenience users, but not all users follow or read the same threads, just those that they choose to read or follow.

 

[glusc2002]

I am amazed that after that scenario your takeaway was that the car could have done a better job of protecting your friend from himself. I mean wow.

What would have happened if he was driving any other car and dosed off? Would it have pulled over for him and put on the emergency lights?

Yet your complaint seems to be that the car didn't do a good enough job of saving his ass. I can't wrap my head around that. Did I just misunderstand you?

yes you did misunderstand.

i own a tesla so im not complaining that it could have done a better job. Im proposing that the tesla should create a procedure prior to the car enabling it to come to a dead stop on a freeway with moving traffic at the speeds of 65-70mph which could be just as fatal by being rear ended. an alarm that was very loud could make the driver alert while the car is still in AP mode and that way the driver could take over control just as the AP requires now and then to put your hands on the steering wheel to confirm the driver is alert. Its not hard to implement a feature like this since alarms on the car already exist for safety measures.

Of course its a no brainer that the car performed 100% better than a non tesla that didnt have AP features. Im simply saying the car could have the alarm feature to continue its intent not to get in an accident , this accident specifically of concern to me is being rear ended.

 

[RogerHScott]

there definitely are going to be occasions that were not intentional when owners are too tired or medically they knock out at the wheel

The former is grossly irresponsible and the latter is actually criminal -- it's called DUI (Driving Under the Influence). Your supposed
"need to get somewhere" does not entitle you to get behind the wheel and drive unsafely. Period.

 

[Mike K]

yes you did misunderstand.

i own a tesla so im not complaining that it could have done a better job. Im proposing that the tesla should create a procedure prior to the car enabling it to come to a dead stop on a freeway with moving traffic at the speeds of 65-70mph which could be just as fatal by being rear ended. an alarm that was very loud could make the driver alert while the car is still in AP mode and that way the driver could take over control just as the AP requires now and then to put your hands on the steering wheel to confirm the driver is alert. Its not hard to implement a feature like this since alarms on the car already exist for safety measures.

Of course its a no brainer that the car performed 100% better than a non tesla that didnt have AP features. Im simply saying the car could have the alarm feature to continue its intent not to get in an accident , this accident specifically of concern to me is being rear ended.

That's fair. What I think isn't fair is complaining about the fact that the car stopped in a lane of moving traffic. The system isn't designed to do any different. It's not as if it malfunctioned. Tesla never advertised that it would pull you over nor is it clear that the system has the ability to perform that function. Also, your friend freaking fell asleep!

I do have a slight fear that Autopilot might actually encourage driver fatigue though. So in that respect I think a startling alarm is actually good idea.

 

[Canuck]

I am amazed that after that scenario your takeaway was that the car could have done a better job of proaecting your friend from himself. I mean wow.

It could have done a better job. He ended up stopped in an active lane of traffic. That is not safe. It could have had louder alarms to wake him up so he didn't end up there. What's so "wow" about that?

What would have happened if he was driving any other car and dosed off? Would it have pulled over for him and put on the emergency lights?

Tesla is not "any other car". We hold Tesla to a much higher standard. We want Tesla to have a louder alarm to keep drivers extra safe and Tesla far ahead of any other car maker, especially because we know that after a few more of these incidents a louder alarm will be coming. Tesla's AP is the best out there. People are human and make mistakes. Tesla's AP can lull people to sleep. I'd prefer a jolt to the ass for those people, but a louder alarm is probably better.

Yet your complaint seems to be that the car didn't do a good enough job of saving his ass. I can't wrap my head around that. Did I just misunderstand you?

You can't wrap your head around constant innovation to save lives? After seat belts became compulsory, did you complain to people that wanted air bags compulsory that the vehicles have done enough to save our lives?

The way you seem so "wowed" by him asking for simply a louder alarm, you'd think he posted demanding that if the vehicle senses you're asleep, it should check for the closest hotel, drive you there, electronically check you in, then sound an alarm. Then your "wow" would make sense to me.

 

[RogerHScott]

The way you seem so "wowed" by him asking for simply a louder alarm, you'd think he posted demanding that if the vehicle senses you're asleep, it should check for the closest hotel, drive you there, electronically check you in, then sound an alarm.

Just a matter of time. Check back here in a couple years...

 

[Canuck]

there definitely are going to be occasions that were not intentional when owners are too tired or medically they knock out at the wheel.

The former is grossly irresponsible and the latter is actually criminal -- it's called DUI (Driving Under the Influence).

So I am medically knocked out by a heart attack, seizure, brain aneurysm, etc. and when I come to, if I come to, I am met with criminal charges? Driving under the influence of a flawed human body?

 

[glusc2002]

It could have done a better job. He ended up stopped in an active lane of traffic. That is not safe. It could have had louder alarms to wake him up so he didn't end up there. What's so "wow" about that?



Tesla is not "any other car". We hold Tesla to a much higher standard. We want Tesla to have a louder alarm to keep drivers extra safe and Tesla far ahead of any other car maker, especially because we know that after a few more of these incidents a louder alarm will be coming. Tesla's AP is the best out there. People are human and make mistakes. Tesla's AP can lull people to sleep. I'd prefer a jolt the ass for those people, but a louder alarm is probably better.



You can't wrap your head around constant innovation to save lives? After seat belts became compulsory, did you complain to people that wanted air bags compulsory that the vehicles have done enough to save our lives?

The way you seem so "wowed" by him asking for simply a louder alarm, you'd think he posted demanding that if the vehicle senses you're asleep, it should check for the closest hotel, drive you there, electronically check you in, then sound an alarm. Then your "wow" would make sense to me.

Thanks for realizing the real message, there was no complaint, just a suggestion that is totally feasible after an incident. Tesla perhaps didnt foresee this kind of event but could learn from users input. I couldnt have created a better response than yours. thanks!

 

[stopcrazypp]

So I am medically knocked out by a heart attack, seizure, brain aneurysm, etc. and when I come to, if I come to, I am met with criminal charges? Driving under the influence of a flawed human body?

I think he is talking specifically about medicine, not a medical incident. There are warning labels on medicine that warn against this. You can get a DUI charge from legal drug use.

 

[glusc2002]

That's fair. What I think isn't fair is complaining about the fact that the car stopped in a lane of moving traffic. The system isn't designed to do any different. It's not as if it malfunctioned. Tesla never advertised that it would pull you over nor is it clear that the system has the ability to perform that function.

I do have a slight fear that Autopilot might actually encourage driver fatigue though. So in that respect I think a startling alarm is actually good idea.

Tesla doesnt advertise to do those however those incidences that can be unfortunate do occur factually. Tesla makes updates to its software based on past accidents or potentially projecting how to prevent accidents. Having a louder alarm is just an input as a driver and owner of telsa that I would like to see tesla update, mainly because its completely within their means to make this happen.

 

[Mike K]

It could have done a better job. He ended up stopped in an active lane of traffic. That is not safe. It could have had louder alarms to wake him up so he didn't end up there. What's so "wow" about that?

Yeah I suppose it could have also made him a cup of latte. At the end of the day the system was never intended to perform the function of moving off of the road-way. Agreed on there being a louder alarm and I even mentioned that.

Tesla is not "any other car". We hold Tesla to a much higher standard. We want Tesla to have a louder alarm to keep drivers extra safe and Tesla far ahead of any other car maker, especially because we know that after a few more of these incidents a louder alarm will be coming. Tesla's AP is the best out there. People are human and make mistakes. Tesla's AP can lull people to sleep. I'd prefer a jolt the ass for those people, but a louder alarm is probably better.

Fair point.

You can't wrap your head around constant innovation to save lives? After seat belts became compulsory, did you complain to people that wanted air bags compulsory that the vehicles have done enough to save our lives?

I read the post as if it was a failing on the part of AutoPilot that this guy ended up stopped in a lane of moving traffic with his hazards on. I guess it's all a matter of perspective. To me, relative to literally any other car, he is alive because of Autopilot.

The way you seem so "wowed" by him asking for simply a louder alarm, you'd think he posted demanding that if the vehicle senses you're asleep, it should check for the closest hotel, drive you there, electronically check you in, then sound an alarm. Then your "wow" would make sense to me.

Way to marginalize my post and boil it down to a silly claim. I don't dispute that a louder alarm would be great and in hindsight, somewhat obvious. What I disagree with is the assertion that it's a problem that the car ended up stopped in a lane of moving traffic. Holding Tesla to a higher standard is one thing. Criticizing the system that just saved your friend's life for not doing something it was never intended to do is where I draw the line.

If I misread the post so be it. It appears I'm not the only one. Also, if you're going to mock my argument at least take it within the context of my entire post.

 

[Mike K]

Tesla doesnt advertise to do those however those incidences that can be unfortunate do occur factually. Tesla makes updates to its software based on past accidents or potentially projecting how to prevent accidents. Having a louder alarm is just an input as a driver and owner of telsa that I would like to see tesla update, mainly because its completely within their means to make this happen.

I totally agree on the alarm. I don't know how to be more clear about that.

At the end of the day though, I see two issues:

1. The system was never designed to pull you off the road. I've never seen that advertised. It's always been that if you ignore the AP warnings the car will turn on it's hazards and gradually slow to a stop. So the criticism of that aspect of the event, I think, is unwarranted.

2. Your friend fell asleep. While I agree that an intrusive alarm would be a great addition, at the end of the day your friend fell asleep.

 

[CuriousG]

Are people allowed to drive with narcolepsy?

 

[RogerHScott]

So I am medically knocked out by a heart attack, seizure, brain aneurysm, etc. and when I come to, if I come to, I am met with criminal charges? Driving under the influence of a flawed human body?

Since this was paired with "tired" I interpreted "medically knocked out" as "knocked out by medicine". Is that not a reasonable parallel to draw?

 

[mblakele]

Are people allowed to drive with narcolepsy?

So I am medically knocked out by a heart attack, seizure, brain aneurysm, etc. and when I come to, if I come to, I am met with criminal charges?

INAL, but in California you would probably have your license suspended or revoked. Criminal charges would depend on the circumstances. For example if you fell asleep at the wheel while driving with a suspended license... then you might wake up to criminal charges.

 

[Canuck]

To me, relative to literally any other car, he is alive because of Autopilot.

I don't know about that. Maybe without autopilot, and driving yourself, you are less prone to fall asleep?

Criticizing the system that just saved your friend's life for not doing something it was never intended to do is where I draw the line.

I doubt it saved his life. There's a big difference between driving yourself and having AP activated. To suggest he would have fallen asleep if he was not on AP is too big a stretch for me.

Since this was paired with "tired" I interpreted "medically knocked out" as "knocked out by medicine". Is that not a reasonable parallel to draw?

That's reasonable. I didn't look it as medicinally knocked out since I didn't think the OP would ever suggest that AP should be relied on if you are drugged up, prescription or otherwise.

 

[Canuck]

Are people allowed to drive with narcolepsy?

Generally, yes.

In some cases, the doctor may choose to do a Maintenance of Wakefulness Test (MWT) to determine whether an individual can stay awake even under boring circumstances.5 This test cannot guarantee that an individual will remain alert when driving, but the results can still be helpful for optimizing medications. This test is especially important if a person with narcolepsy has previously fallen asleep while driving.

The "boring circumstances" of driving are likely increase with AP which could present them with an even greater risk when it comes to driving.

 

[Ulmo]

For the record, let me state:

Tesla Autopilot is not yet supposed to be at a point where it can take care of sleeping drivers. It might or might not save injury if someone accidentally falls asleep. Someone might accidentally (or intentionally) fall asleep being comforted to know that they might be saved by Tesla autopilot, but as we know, decapitation is one possible outcome (it already happened in Florida).

It is not supposed to happen that someone sleeps using today's Tesla Autopilot. It could turn into an emergency. Imagine this scenereo in that video above: traffic speeds up. His car starts going faster. An autopilot-assistance feature failure happens while he's asleep, and injury occurs.

If law enforcement is there, they could cite him. If other cars are there, they should politely attempt to wake him up (generic honking and yelling at him should be the least and most anybody should do -- don't take physical actions and don't just blithely go by without honking at him, with exception of a very very very sane and logical driver very very carefully getting in front of him and ever so slightly slowing down slowly so the AP car doesn't hit them and gets the AP car to stop, then lets the angry drivers behind start honking wildly, which would ultimately wake up the Tesla driver, but this is VERY dangerous, because if the freeway speeds up while you have stopped the sleeper, or was already moving swiftly, you probably just killed a few people, so don't do it).

I think the law states that other drivers must warn him of a danger, by honking at him. Of course, the danger in this case is himself.


Someday, this will be a primary use case for Autopilot. Not today. I look forward to sleeping in my car using various autonomous features. That's not today!

Right now: If you feel sleepy, pull over. If you wake up to honking and yelling, look out the window, and see that you are in a moving vehicle, look down, and see the Tesla T, and realize autopilot stopped you from having an accident, then politely look horrified (it helps with the self righteous assholes who don't know how to just honk and yell), put on your right blinker, and safely move over to a safe space to get way way way off the road safely and get a break. Get out and walk around enough to get your blood flowing. Get safe enough to reenter the freeway, get to the next exit, and then find a safe place to park.

If anybody ever sees me sleeping in my Tesla in the above situation, please honk and yell at me. Don't go crazy -- just wake me the hell up. I wouldn't want to be asleep at the wheel today.

 

[Canuck]

Criminal charges would depend on the circumstances. For example if you fell asleep at the wheel while driving with a suspended license... then you might wake up to criminal charges.

Right, and If I was wanted for murder, I would wake up to criminal charges too.

Tesla Autopilot is not yet supposed to be at a point where it can take care of sleeping drivers.

Of course not. That completely misses the point and no one is suggesting that. But falling asleep while driving happens. It's a fact of life, which is why Amazon sells this:

https://www.amazon.com/Driver-Alert-Sleep-Warning-Device/dp/B001N1A46K

You're basically telling us to just accept AP as it is and don't ask for a louder warning signal. Why?

A louder warning is easy to implement and is likely coming, especially because when driving on AP you are probably more prone to fall asleep. I think Tesla appreciates this kind of feedback, rather than just praise for their AP system.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Right, and If I was wanted for murder, I would wake up to criminal charges too.



Of course not. That completely misses the point and no one is suggesting that. Falling asleep while driving happens. It's a fact of life, which is why Amazon sells this:

https://www.amazon.com/Driver-Alert-Sleep-Warning-Device/dp/B001N1A46K

You're basically telling us to just accept AP as it is and don't ask for a louder warning signal. Why?

A louder warning is easy to implement and is likely coming, especially because when driving on AP you are probably more prone to fall asleep. I think Tesla appreciates this kind of feedback, rather than just praise for their AP system.

The next question becomes is it going to be configurable. There are going to be people who will never fall asleep while using AP and they would not appreciate an annoyingly loud warning. Owners are not a homogeneous group and some will feel a louder warning is a significant negative.