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thelastdeadmouse
Member
A full range Model S is a $80,000 (minus $7500) car. Options called options because they're optional. You can spec a Taurus to nearly $47,000, but nobody calls it a $47,000 car. Its fine to say the car is 100,000 as tested or some variation, but to call the car a 100,000 with no qualifier is dishonest.
This is probably the bet thread for me to add my story ..... I currently drive a 2005 Porsche 911 cabriolet - never thought I would consider anything but another Porsche until I laid eyes on the Tesla model S. As an engineer i get all excited at the technology. I immediately became obsessed over the past few weeks, test drove it at the manhattan gallery and immediately placed a reservation based on the insane acceleration and gorgeous 17" touchscreen. I then started reading the forums and looking at pictures and started to question my decision. I went to the tesla store on Long Island today and took a serious view of the interior and all other functional aspects of the car to compare to what I drive now and what I could get from a newer Porsche for the ~$120k I would be out for a fully loaded P85 with performance +. I then took it for another test drive to gauge the other driving qualities/characteristics that are equally as important, such as fast "off the line" smooth acceleration, tight handling, road feedback, braking, turning radius, connection to the road, etc. I am sorry to say that I just wasn't feeling it today and then realized that if you look past the sexy touchscreen and all-electric drivetrain (albeit an incredible engineering feat) the model S has a long way to go to provide a real luxury experience in both fit and finish and being a true driver's car. The quality of the leather and construction of the seats appear to be an afterthought. A big gaping cubby section between the driver and passenger makes no sense and for tesla to tell customers that its there for your "bag" is downright comical.
I really believe that this is the future of transportation but a few iterations need to be rolled out I believe if they want to capture customers that were not former EV diehards from other companies...
so I regrettably will be canceling my reservation but will continue to follow the progress ...
I really believe that this is the future of transportation but a few iterations need to be rolled out I believe if they want to capture customers that were not former EV diehards from other companies...
so I regrettably will be canceling my reservation but will continue to follow the progress ...
Pretty much where I am. Something of a Tesla fanboy - but a few things need to get worked out if Im to slap down $107k for a P85 P+. I was in a fever like you were - but became a bit angered by the cost of the options and the conflicting ... "the MS has so few moving parts to maintain - oh but BTW $600 a year to maintain it???" I hope to own one in the future - and am thankful for all of the early adopters. But reason needs to direct - and apetite obey.
I have a 2012 Agate Gray Carrera S and used to drive it to work everyday. Then I received the Tesla, which now has 1500 miles on it. The MS is now the everyday driver. The only way I would take the Porsche over the MS would be if I drove out of town 2-3 days a week (120+ miles one way). Fortunately for me, I only have to drive to work 40-50 miles a day, so the Tesla is driven 99% of the time. I find the MS drives better on the interstate, and while it doesn't handle quite as well on the corners (the 911 has PDCC) as the Pcar, it is super smooth in comparison. The Tesla is also more comfy in the interior, loads more room and the electronics are much better.
Tesla is a new car company, and there are going to be issues, no doubt. But I find the car comparable or better overall than most of the cars I own or have owned and after a few weeks of ownership feel confident I made the right choice.
justaddsun
Member
@Strong887: It's your money and your decision and I appreciate you posting here. Here are my thoughts:
1) When deciding on your purchase, people have to figure out what they want. There are compromises to every car, though I would argue that these are much, much less in a Model S. In the Tesla, you can load up your family and gear, accelerate to 60 in 4.4 seconds, have zero emissions, have your wife surf the web and kids listen to "Taylor Swift Radio", while achieving zero emissions and a fraction of the carbon footprint of using gas. If you are alone in the car, you can go faster (say 3.9 seconds to 60mph documented), and have real fun.
2) No one has driven the Performance + Package yet, but I applaud Tesla and Elon for quickly realizing that the suspension and handling, while excellent in stock form for a sports/family sedan, is lacking in "tossability" and simply does not keep up with the power/torque of the motor or weight of the car. I suspect handling with this new package will be on par with AMG or M, but how can anyone compare this 4700 lb car (or any AMG/M) with a Porsche 911? Apples to oranges (save for the acceleration). I do think that bolstered sport seats should have been part of the P+ package -- you really don't want to be bracing yourself on twists and turns with this kind of power and turning forces.
3) I find it difficult to understand your comment about "looking past the touchscreen and electric drivetrain" -- that's like saying take away all driver's controls/infotainment along with the unique propulsion mechanism -- or, take away all center console buttons and twin-turbos of a Porsche Turbo and what have you got?... Having said that, the minimalist/fluid interior design is not for everyone (consider black interior w/ red piping and CF trim to offset). Having owned this car for a few weeks now, I can say the nappa leather is on par with that of my previous AMG without question.
4) I think a big mistake of a lot of people shopping for this car is to take marketing talk and make it gospel. Tesla needs to sells cars so they will use a lot of hyperbole in their marketing: no compromises, no fluids so no maintenance, 300 mile range, etc. A lot of people here are successful in life and able to afford these cars b/c they don't just believe everything they read, but educate themselves, find the truth, and understand the real-life costs and the effects on their own lives. lol, now I am preaching, but basically just saying, know what you're getting into -- a first generation, expensive, all electric, super-sedan with running changes coming almost every week -- with all the joys (and potential sorrows) that that may entail. In this echelon of cars eg Porsches, BMW, MB -- everyone has to "pay to play." Yes, I will have to pay for yearly service, monthly wireless connectivity (including Slacker), new tires every 6000-8000 miles, curb rash on a 21" wheel, a few extra phone calls to the service center or ownership, paying an extra $1000 for a center console insert (which looks great in real-life, btw; have never regretted getting it) -- but I knew that going in and am perfectly williing to trade that bit to support an American company, American workers, cleaner energy, and oh yeah, my need for speed and style
. But, I completely respect those who do not want to stomach these extra costs and want to wait -- just keep in mind that I am 100% sure there will be very similar or greater costs in the traditional ICE cars along with thousands of dollars in gas per year. Again, sorry for the soapbox -- I'm sure I'm stating the obvious.
5) This sea-change is all a process and I appreciate you recognizing that it is the future and you will one day be there. Just a couple personal notes: there's a part to most of us that purchase a $100,000 car to be "exclusive," I am right there. But, since owning this car I've been giving out test rides to all my friends/family and actually being "inclusive" -- I want others to know and feel what the Model S is about and hopefully they can purchase one as well (or Model X, Gen III, Leaf/Volt, etc.). I am now looking at solar for my house -- moving along a path that this car set me out on -- and, trust me, I barely recycled before .
Best of luck to you in the future.
1) When deciding on your purchase, people have to figure out what they want. There are compromises to every car, though I would argue that these are much, much less in a Model S. In the Tesla, you can load up your family and gear, accelerate to 60 in 4.4 seconds, have zero emissions, have your wife surf the web and kids listen to "Taylor Swift Radio", while achieving zero emissions and a fraction of the carbon footprint of using gas. If you are alone in the car, you can go faster (say 3.9 seconds to 60mph documented), and have real fun.
2) No one has driven the Performance + Package yet, but I applaud Tesla and Elon for quickly realizing that the suspension and handling, while excellent in stock form for a sports/family sedan, is lacking in "tossability" and simply does not keep up with the power/torque of the motor or weight of the car. I suspect handling with this new package will be on par with AMG or M, but how can anyone compare this 4700 lb car (or any AMG/M) with a Porsche 911? Apples to oranges (save for the acceleration). I do think that bolstered sport seats should have been part of the P+ package -- you really don't want to be bracing yourself on twists and turns with this kind of power and turning forces.
3) I find it difficult to understand your comment about "looking past the touchscreen and electric drivetrain" -- that's like saying take away all driver's controls/infotainment along with the unique propulsion mechanism -- or, take away all center console buttons and twin-turbos of a Porsche Turbo and what have you got?... Having said that, the minimalist/fluid interior design is not for everyone (consider black interior w/ red piping and CF trim to offset). Having owned this car for a few weeks now, I can say the nappa leather is on par with that of my previous AMG without question.
4) I think a big mistake of a lot of people shopping for this car is to take marketing talk and make it gospel. Tesla needs to sells cars so they will use a lot of hyperbole in their marketing: no compromises, no fluids so no maintenance, 300 mile range, etc. A lot of people here are successful in life and able to afford these cars b/c they don't just believe everything they read, but educate themselves, find the truth, and understand the real-life costs and the effects on their own lives. lol, now I am preaching, but basically just saying, know what you're getting into -- a first generation, expensive, all electric, super-sedan with running changes coming almost every week -- with all the joys (and potential sorrows) that that may entail. In this echelon of cars eg Porsches, BMW, MB -- everyone has to "pay to play." Yes, I will have to pay for yearly service, monthly wireless connectivity (including Slacker), new tires every 6000-8000 miles, curb rash on a 21" wheel, a few extra phone calls to the service center or ownership, paying an extra $1000 for a center console insert (which looks great in real-life, btw; have never regretted getting it) -- but I knew that going in and am perfectly williing to trade that bit to support an American company, American workers, cleaner energy, and oh yeah, my need for speed and style
. But, I completely respect those who do not want to stomach these extra costs and want to wait -- just keep in mind that I am 100% sure there will be very similar or greater costs in the traditional ICE cars along with thousands of dollars in gas per year. Again, sorry for the soapbox -- I'm sure I'm stating the obvious.5) This sea-change is all a process and I appreciate you recognizing that it is the future and you will one day be there
. Just a couple personal notes: there's a part to most of us that purchase a $100,000 car to be "exclusive," I am right there. But, since owning this car I've been giving out test rides to all my friends/family and actually being "inclusive" -- I want others to know and feel what the Model S is about and hopefully they can purchase one as well (or Model X, Gen III, Leaf/Volt, etc.). I am now looking at solar for my house -- moving along a path that this car set me out on -- and, trust me, I barely recycled before .Best of luck to you in the future.
It may not be ideal, but it's better than the Audi A6 and A4 on most of those counts, and competitive on turning radius (this is a huge car, so you can't expect a great turning radius).
There is one thing: I've actually had some a odd experiences which I can't explain: there is *one road* in my town where the Model S feels really bumpy and disconnected from the road. *One road*. Everywhere else in town -- smooth roads, roads made of potholes, roads in between, up and down hills, banked, not banked, it feels like it's hugging the pavement and I have brilliant road feedback and tight handling. I cannot figure out what it is about this one road; the pavement looks perfectly average. So I'd make sure your test drive went around to a number of different places; there is something funny going on. A very particular type of road is triggering odd reactions from the suspension or something.
I have no idea where you get this idea. Oh, wait, maybe I do know: the cars available for test drives are very early off the production line, with the usual substandard results one gets from that. The actual currently-in-production cars have really, really well made leather seats, much better than I see in Audis. They're also the most ergonomic seats I've ever seen in an expensive modern car.
Actually, it makes perfect sense and I'm using it exactly that way. Ask any woman with a large purse and she'll tell you the same thing. I can even put a sheaf of papers completely flat *underneath* the bag.
Now, the lack of interior "extras" such as seatback pockets is a minus. And the cupholders are an absurdity. So it really is a sub-luxury interior, but not in the ways you mentioned.
As a racetrack car? Maybe it can be beat.
As a driver's car on the road, however, it cannot be beat. And you won't realize this until you've been driving it for a few days. This is all about the massive superioirty of the electric drivetrain. The flat torque curve, regenerative braking, instant response, and lack of gearshifting, means that I need to pay *less mental attention* to the mechanics of the car. (But I don't stop paying attention until I'm *used* to the electric drivetrain.) This allows me to *pay more attention to the road* -- really! The lack of engine noise means it's easier to pay attention to the road noises, too. I've found myself more aware of my environment, and I think that's the ultimate goal of a "touring car".
first time in cones. I think I will do much better next time. the Supercharged 5.0 is blazing fast + huge tires all around. I think I might have a chance with a little practice and some wheels and tires
during my third run from the morning session I even put the car in reverse and backed up for a couple of seconds! should have just blown over the couple of cones in my way when I came into a supertight box too fast in a slide.
no worrying about shift points or what gear your automatic is in for when you go to floor it. Just focus on the track and cones+ trying to keep all the weight on the ground & sticking (now I need a liquid cooled roaster :tongue
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We generally quote car prices based on base sticker price. So it's an $80,000 car.
Of course, being an $80,000 car means you'll likely spend $100,000 on it in the year you buy it, because of tax, options, extended warranty, service contract, winter tires, whatever, etc. But if it were a $100,000 car, you'd be spending $120,000 on it. If it were a $120,000 car, you'd be spending $140,000+ on it. And so on.
Worth noting: AAA recently claimed that the typical fully loaded cost of owning an automobile averages $10,000 / year. So if I keep the car for 11 years, having prepaid for almost everything, I'll just be paying what the average American pays. :tongue: (Of course, the average American is paying interest, and I'm not, so it's not an apples-to-apples comparison.)
Merrill
Merrill
I have said this before and I will say it again, everybody compares this car to an ICE. Get over it, this is pure electric and if you are not into that you cannot do any comparisons. If you are happy to spew carbon monoxide and use unlimited power sources instead of the sun, then you don't get it. Having said that, the Model S would be an amazing vehicle even if it was not all electric. And as has been mention over and over again you are buying a car made in the USA and supporting a very good cause. Comparing this to a sports car is also not fair, it is a 4 door sedan. So as was said above, make your decisions to buy on what your needs and wants are. It is not for everyone and to me that is a good thing.
rogbmw
Member
Strong887 - I understand what you are saying...but let me state this. I too came from driving a German car (a BMW) since 1984. My last car was a BMW 1M coupe. We have had our Model S since February 10th. I opted for a standard 85 battery pack instead of the performance. Having driven the car now for 2+ months, I realize that there is just something about driving the Model S that is hard to grasp from just a short test drive. I am a driving instructor for the BMW CCA chapter safety school, and seriously enjoy driving. Yes - there are things about the Model S that are not perfect, just as there is with any car including a Porsche, BMW or Chevy! Having lived with the interior for 2 months, I am realizing that it has grown on me, and I find it a very nice driving environment. Plus, the instant torque and "quickness" of the car is phenominenal (remember - I "only" have the 85regular, not the Performance 85, but at a Motor Trend tested 0 - 60 time of 5.0 seconds, it is plenty quick for me). Do I like the the open console concept - not necessarily, but this is an area where-to-each-his-own and is not necessarily a shortcoming but personal preference.
Just some things to consider.....
those are new cars for around here :wink:
This was my first 'track' drive review. I took 3 different people along with me on laps and they were all blown away by the car. The Model S does understeer pretty badly IMO. But I also managed to get it to oversteer a tiny bit. I was going into most corners really fast for the asphalt conditions and had lots of front tire scrubbing trying to maintain a steady speed through some of the wider turns. I could almost get the back end to kick out if I stomped the brake while in a slippery ~150' radius turn and then floored the go (was faster just trying to drive the turn nicely without slipping though)
I don't think I would have more fun in a smaller car that was loud and I needed to shift (although I always loved sporty shifting manuals, not sure anymore) The S is a little tricky to feel the speed due to the silence. I opened my windows and sunroof a bit so I'd know when I was close to 60mph or so for braking timing.
comparing it to a sports car is fair.
It is a supercar (but not a > 200km/hr one...fortunately)
and a superfun car
ok
maybe a 'sports' car isn't fair, it has waay more space
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mkaresh
Member
Still no Detroit-area press fleet. I'll be passing through Chicago soon, and hope to drive one at the dealer there. I've been hearing great things!
My Lexus-driving father has expressed interest in the car, generally a sign of broad appeal.
My Lexus-driving father has expressed interest in the car, generally a sign of broad appeal.
3 days into ownership so far nothing but: "wow"
1) my 6 year old - "wow" there is no engine in the frunk
2) my 73 year old dad - "wow, drives much more fun than your BMW"
3) my 46 year old brother - "wow. can you show this to my wife, I want one"
4) me - "wow, cant wait for my 6 year old's Tesla as it will likely fly"
Overall, my first drive review is simple and quick: it drives like a dream (even when pushed), cornering is great, acceleration is awesome, it's quite, basically a really big RC car but you get to sit inside of it.
1) my 6 year old - "wow" there is no engine in the frunk
2) my 73 year old dad - "wow, drives much more fun than your BMW"
3) my 46 year old brother - "wow. can you show this to my wife, I want one"
4) me - "wow, cant wait for my 6 year old's Tesla as it will likely fly"
Overall, my first drive review is simple and quick: it drives like a dream (even when pushed), cornering is great, acceleration is awesome, it's quite, basically a really big RC car but you get to sit inside of it.
Ok, I finally registered now that I'm having my test drive this Tuesday. This forum has been a great resource for learning about the Model S and I appreciate everyone's opinions. On this page someone mentioned the Panamera would be a better comparison. I just so happen to be driving a 2011 V6 Panamera. I love it. It will be hard to part with it if I take the plunge. I paid $84k for it, and my current plan is to look at the 85 non performance S. this car equipped as I plan will actually be more expensive than my Panamera. I will say the tesla site annoys me by including the tax credit in the price of the car.
So I recently sat in a neighbors 60 Model S with no leather in black. So its hard to compare to the panamera whhich has the most beautifully appointed interior of any car ive sat in. If I make the switch, I will miss the tight cockpit cabin and leather of the Panamera. I will sorely miss the wood steering wheel and the especially the ventilated seats down here in south Florida. I drove it. The acceleration, especially from 30-50 was a pleasure. The handling paled in comparison to the Panamera. I love the touch screen though my friends froze while we were trying it. I love the panoramic roof, though my friends had a crack and is only one week old.
In the end, I still may do it. It would be my first electronic vehicle, and I love the technology in this car. I just need someone to tell me the interior with the napa leather is still very nice. And that I won't miss the ventilated seats and wood steering wheel. I know many here have great discussion how these are not the things we are concerned about with this car. Convince me of more benefits aside from electricity drive versus my Panamera, which I would definitely be sad to see go.
Long winded first post, hope to have many more.
So I recently sat in a neighbors 60 Model S with no leather in black. So its hard to compare to the panamera whhich has the most beautifully appointed interior of any car ive sat in. If I make the switch, I will miss the tight cockpit cabin and leather of the Panamera. I will sorely miss the wood steering wheel and the especially the ventilated seats down here in south Florida. I drove it. The acceleration, especially from 30-50 was a pleasure. The handling paled in comparison to the Panamera. I love the touch screen though my friends froze while we were trying it. I love the panoramic roof, though my friends had a crack and is only one week old.
In the end, I still may do it. It would be my first electronic vehicle, and I love the technology in this car. I just need someone to tell me the interior with the napa leather is still very nice. And that I won't miss the ventilated seats and wood steering wheel. I know many here have great discussion how these are not the things we are concerned about with this car. Convince me of more benefits aside from electricity drive versus my Panamera, which I would definitely be sad to see go.
Long winded first post, hope to have many more.
Clint, I thought you lived in Carmel California. The model S is addicting. I like the interior design but it probably is not the quality of my Porsche Boxster. For everyday driving it is outstanding. On a track it will not keep up with a Porsche unless you get the performance plus. We have had ours since December, so no hot weather yet. Since you can turn on the AC remotely that should partially make up for the lack of ventilated seats. The seats are very comfortable on trips.
Clint,
I am a hardcore ICE guy (or maybe I was, not sure, having an identity crisis). Our garage has a BMW X5 (50i) X3 (35i), 911 and the 60 Model S - the first thing I hear from my small kids in the AM - "are we taking the Tesla to school today"?
The S does not have ventilated seats, lacks the Porsche "grunt" on take off, does not have the pedigree and I would tend to say corners a bit inferior to the Porsche but .... every time I drive it I love it! The feel of not going to the gas station, no oil changes, no "maintenance" - I can compare it to this emotion: it's like getting the first iPad - there was nothing really like it ... it was dare I say revolutionary - for beginning of 2013 model S is quite similar. I don't think it's about benefits but rather about personal satisfaction!
I am a hardcore ICE guy (or maybe I was, not sure, having an identity crisis). Our garage has a BMW X5 (50i) X3 (35i), 911 and the 60 Model S - the first thing I hear from my small kids in the AM - "are we taking the Tesla to school today"?
The S does not have ventilated seats, lacks the Porsche "grunt" on take off, does not have the pedigree and I would tend to say corners a bit inferior to the Porsche but .... every time I drive it I love it! The feel of not going to the gas station, no oil changes, no "maintenance" - I can compare it to this emotion: it's like getting the first iPad - there was nothing really like it ... it was dare I say revolutionary - for beginning of 2013 model S is quite similar. I don't think it's about benefits but rather about personal satisfaction!
That's a great comparison. So I had my test drive. I'm sleeping on my decision to put down a deposit. My biggest question after my test drive are first and foremost the comfort long term of the seat vs my Panamera. There is no way to know in a test drive.Clint,
I am a hardcore ICE guy (or maybe I was, not sure, having an identity crisis). Our garage has a BMW X5 (50i) X3 (35i), 911 and the 60 Model S - the first thing I hear from my small kids in the AM - "are we taking the Tesla to school today"?
The S does not have ventilated seats, lacks the Porsche "grunt" on take off, does not have the pedigree and I would tend to say corners a bit inferior to the Porsche but .... every time I drive it I love it! The feel of not going to the gas station, no oil changes, no "maintenance" - I can compare it to this emotion: it's like getting the first iPad - there was nothing really like it ... it was dare I say revolutionary - for beginning of 2013 model S is quite similar. I don't think it's about benefits but rather about personal satisfaction!
My next decision is blue with tan with either matte or glossy obeche or gray with tan interior with matte or glossy...
