Model S has No Soul!

[sandpiper]

Nah, soul isn't just that its crap. It has to be beautiful and mindaltering crap. Character. Maybe this might be the word?

I'm not sure Model S has character.

But Model X sure does.

Ah... okay. The A4 wasn't beautiful. But it was mind-altering in that it damn near caused me to have a stroke on a few occasions.

A "Soulful" automobile is a bit like a floozy trophy wife or (to be gender neutral) trophy husband. They're wonderful to look at, great to be seen with and inspire jealousy among your friends. But they're noisy, unreliable, high maintenance, difficult to deal with and spend far too much time and money in a shop. And after an hour on the road you just wish you'd left them at home. Once you've had it for a year you wonder why you ever wanted it in the first place, and decide to trade it in before it costs you both arms and both legs.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

A "Soulful" automobile is a bit like a floozy trophy wife or (to be gender neutral) trophy husband. They're wonderful to look at, great to be seen with and inspire jealousy among your friends. But they're noisy, unreliable, high maintenance, difficult to deal with and spend far too much time and money in a shop

You have just described a supercar.

They're always the best as a poster on your room's wall when you are 10.

But golly do they have soul.

Model X totally could be on a poster.

 

[jgs]

Has anyone mentioned the warm sound of vinyl yet?

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Has anyone mentioned the warm sound of vinyl yet?

It was on the first page...

 

[AB4EJ]

I have been reading this a lot lately and I know this might be a very controversial subject but I wanted to hear some explanations about this idea, that the Model S has no soul.

So the first thing I want to say as I am relatively new here and an admitted fanboy. For me, there is no better car in the world, and I'm wondering if the "no soul" argument is simply a BS way to push back against innovation.

I also don't get the "real car guys would never drive an electric" argument.

I consider myself a "real car guy". Do, I do my own oil changes in my driveway? No, but who gets to define "real car guy"? Why do my hands have to be covered in grease to be a "real car guy"?

Meaning, if I love a quiet ride, instant torque, technology and innovation, why am I not a "real car guy"? If I marvel at how smooth my Model S is over the herky-jerky transmission of my IS350, does it make me less of a car guy? If I prefer serenity over noise, can I not be a "car guy"?

As an admitted atheist... I don't believe humans have souls (but that is an entirely different thread) but when I read people (even "experts") saying the Model S has "no soul", what does it mean? What and who gets to define the soul of an inanimate object?

I remember back with the invention of the CD, music "purists" decried them as a bastardization of sound one could get from a record. Today, most music comes via hard drives and downloads. The notion that the old way was better would largely be ridiculed. I am wondering if the same will be true with electric cars. I kind of see it as inevitable.

Again, not sure what is meant by "soul" but if it means putting a smile on my face every time I sit down, my Model S has plenty of soul.

Sorry, but there is no such thing as a soul. link here

 

[AnxietyRanger]

I wonder if there is something U.S. vs. Europe in this conversation as well.

In my experience, in Europe, a lot of things are considered to have "soul" (or lack of it) - it is a specific meaning, intangible though it is.

It has got nothing to do with religion.

Germans also liberally use the word Faszination with cars that does not really translate to fascination.

Something is often lost in translation.

 

[MarcusMaximus]

I wonder if there is something U.S. vs. Europe in this conversation as well.

In my experience, in Europe, a lot of things are considered to have "soul" (or lack of it) - it is a specific meaning, intangible though it is.

It has got nothing to do with religion.

It's the same thing in the US, pretty sure that was just a joke.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

It's the same thing in the US, pretty sure that was just a joke.

Fair enough.

Just leaving room for different interpretations...

 

[jgs]

Sorry, but there is no such thing as a soul. link here

Au contraire, link here.

 

[cab]

I have to admit, as a "car guy" I do see the "lack of soul" in the Model S...and actually in most EVs. The reality is that most EVs drive very similarly. They have a single gear, smooth acceleration and decent torque. Sure the Model S has more of it, but my P85+ isn't a lot different than my Volt was in terms of the basic "drive".

You lose a lot of the drive experience "differentiation" from one EV to the next. You no longer have the nuances of a manual transmission or the quick shift of a dual clutch automatic. Sure, you can say the single gear is an improvement over both of those, but it goes to the lack of engagement and interaction (note: interaction with Slacker radio doesn't count).

I've driven a few EVs and PHEVs: my gen 1 Volt, my Model S, Audi's A3 E-tron, 2nd gen Volt, and BMW i3. If I had to say which had the most car guy interest...well...it's probably the darn BMW i3. Now, you might say "What are you smoking CAB?!", but hear me out.Car guys aren't typically hooked on 5000 lbs high-powered cruisers (which is what the Model S really is). Instead, they tend to go for hot hatches (think VW GTI, Focus ST), sports cars (think Miata, Vette, Boxster) , sports coupes (think Camaro, 911, Mustang) or sports sedans (think BMW 3 series, etc.). The original BMW i3 was odd-looking (yes, I'm being kind), but it was also a hot hatch with its short wheelbase, "a little too firm" suspension, and...LIGHT WEIGHT. Compared to any other EV on the market this thing was a featherweight. It was downright tossable. My P85+ (arguably the best handling Model S) is a lot more powerful, but it is really a one trick pony in terms of car guy engagement - you push down the right pedal and it goes fast. It never really "inspires" me to want to whip it around a corner, etc. A buddy of mine came over the other night with a recently acquired 2015 Vette. The exhaust note was spectacular. We drove around with the windows down just to hear that music. The difference in mass was incredibly noticeable too. Of course - it is a completely different type of car.

Ultimately, I look forward to the days where we see "electric" versions of EVERY different kind of car out there. I don't envy manufacturers as they try to build "differentiation" in to their products once the drive trains themselves all start to feel identical. As a car guy though, I've seen where this train has been going for a long time. Heck, 90% of the time when I ask someone to show me their new car, they walk me outside and pull up the infotainment system and we spend 5 minutes looking at that. I usually have to ask "Um...can we DRIVE it???".

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Very nice post @cab.

There was recently a Korean car company in the news saying they don't believe EV days will require different brands of sporty cars anymore, that the EV drivetrain makes all that kind of differentiation moot. So there is that thinking, no doubt.

But you i3 example certainly got me thinking.

Not to mention Rimac.

Yeah, you are absolutely right about the one trick pony thing - and that's where Tesla still has their work cut out for them and that's where the Korean car guys are wrong... it is the handling department that will never go out of style, even if the techniques and technologies to get there change.

 

[Struja]

Hey @cab I actually agree with most of your explanation about what you like in cars, what I don't agree with is the notion of "most car guys".

When I was young, I drove my parents cars, from a Buick Park Avenue, Pontiac Grand Prix to a Honda Civic etc...

The first car I bought was a 1992 Honda Prelude SR-V (Manual Transmission). It was a riot. I loved the car. I had modified the car (some of it myself) and I still think of that car very fondly.

I consider myself no less of a a "car guy" now but my likes and dislikes are different. So, everything you find the same about EV's, I find exhilarating. Maybe I am nuts, maybe I'm just not very smart but I've NEVER driven any car that makes me feel the way my Model S makes me feel.

Frankly, I could have bought many other cars (like an E63 AMG) for less money but I left the test drive feeling bored. Again, I get how some might LOVE the roar of the engine from the E63 but it just wasn't for me.

I just don't think that excludes me from being a "car guy" or excludes the Model S from being any less soulful than any ICE car.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

@Struja I think the thing is, it isn't really about how some ICE might handle in comparison, I guess the question is what could a future BEV do even better than a Model S. Handling is one area where definitely something could be even more exciting...

 

[cab]

Hey @cab I actually agree with most of your explanation about what you like in cars, what I don't agree with is the notion of "most car guys".

When I was young, I drove my parents cars, from a Buick Park Avenue, Pontiac Grand Prix to a Honda Civic etc...

The first car I bought was a 1992 Honda Prelude SR-V (Manual Transmission). It was a riot. I loved the car. I had modified the car (some of it myself) and I still think of that car very fondly.

I consider myself no less of a a "car guy" now but my likes and dislikes are different. So, everything you find the same about EV's, I find exhilarating. Maybe I am nuts, maybe I'm just not very smart but I've NEVER driven any car that makes me feel the way my Model S makes me feel.

Frankly, I could have bought many other cars (like an E63 AMG) for less money but I left the test drive feeling bored. Again, I get how some might LOVE the roar of the engine from the E63 but it just wasn't for me.

I just don't think that excludes me from being a "car guy" or excludes the Model S from being any less soulful than any ICE car.

It certainly doesn't exclude you from being a "car guy"! Indeed, I think anyone with a passion for cars - ANY cars - probably qualifies as a "car guy". I haven't owned a lot of cars compared to many, but most I've owned (or purchased on behalf of my kids, but got to drive) were at least somewhat sporty or at least sportier versions of the "mainstream" model - 67, 82 and 95 Firebirds/Trans Ams (yeah...I am "that" guy), '95 Maxima, '97 328i sport, '97 M3, '01 530i, '02 M5, '04 Focus SVT, '05 GTO, 2012 Volvo XC60 R-Design, 2013 P85+ - most of them red, yellow or blue! Only our '00 Honda Odyssey and 2012 Volt fell outside that formula. My own progression as a car guy moved me toward "sports sedans" as a car that I could drive every day, and yet still have a sporty/fun driving experience. Hot hatches are also an area of interest, but a "GTI" is probably more my taste than a Focus ST (i.e. I'm old).

The Volt was my attempt to go to something "completely different" after my M5. That experience continued my "Car guy" evolution. Like you, I was (and am) smitten with the electric driving experience - the single gear experience addresses every complaint I've had with automatic transmissions for, well, forever (and why half my list above were sticks). Today's automatics, while better than ever, are also perpetually tuned for economy. 8+ gears and they race to get the highest gear as manufacturers desperately try to hit EPA numbers (and sacrifice "drive-ability" in the process) - sure you can put them in sport mode, but then you end up with some autos that refuse to get to the highest gear, have overly sensitive throttle mapping, hang too long in gear when they shouldn't (they are always second guessing the driver).

When my Volt lease was coming due, I knew I wanted something with a plug, BUT wanted something "sportier". I waited for the gen 2 Volt to come out only to be disappointed that it felt more like my gen 1 Volt that I had hoped - it was a "better" car, but not enough better in the "sporty" category for me. I then test drove the Audi A3 E-tron. I actually really liked that car, but at a paltry 16 miles of EV range and a decent price premium over the Volt, I just couldn't bring myself to pull the trigger...just not enough "plug". I didn't even bother test driving the BMW 330e because it was even pricier and had even less range than the E-tron. I couldn't really afford the "new" Model S I wanted but when Tesla initiated the CPO program it was a matter of time and I ended up in the P85+. It was (and is) the best plug-in sports sedan in my price range.

So what's next? I'm not sure! I test drove a Bolt EV back in July. It's a great car. I like the size, utility and ride quality. While the numbers show it as being pretty quick, for whatever reason it just didn't "feel" that quick. I didn't get that Tesla-like wave of torque right off the line (and I nailed it....a lot...I was on my own on the test drive). The end result is while I liked it, I find it hard to pull the trigger on one. My next candidate of interest is the just released Volvo XC60 T8. It only gets 19 miles on a charge, but is a small SUV, looks great, has 400 hp (gas and electric), and may just do the trick. Oh, and of course, there is the Model 3 - a car size that is much more along the lines of what I was drifting towards before I bought that dang Volt!