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Model S paperwork

Discussion in 'Model S: Ordering, Production, Delivery' started by bonnie, Jan 28, 2013.

  1. bonnie

    bonnie Oil is for sissies.

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    I've read numerous posts about how low some Model S owners are taking their battery, including driving after zero range left. So just curious ... did you have to sign paperwork stating that you'd been informed about battery damage below certain limits?

    Roadster owners had to sign docs clearly stating that they understood and took responsibility. Anything similar for Model S?
     
  2. ElSupreme

    ElSupreme Model S 03182

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    I signed nothing of the sort, and actually read pretty much everything Tesla gave me. I think there was a single "battery capacity may degrade over time, and is dependent on usage" throw away line in there somewhere. Versus my loan agreement which I sort of blind signed :redface:. But you get a popup warning when you charge in range mode. The Model S aggressively starts limiting power from the packs at around 20% battery left. I was only able to draw less than 50% max power with 25 miles (rated) still left on the dash. I have a feeling the car pampers the batteries even at low SOC.

    I am sure driving on low SOC is worse for the batteries, and I don't plan on running my car down often.
     
  3. Zextraterrestrial

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    there is 10% of the kWhr at 0 range left. It might stop moving at 5%? There is nothing saying not to hit 0% but I think 'most' of us understand it isn't probably ideal to do. I'm think the bad thing would be to leave it at 0 miles for a while. I haven't damaged any Lipo's by running them down all the way and then charging promptly to 80-90% afterwards.

    The paperwork/warranty had no mention of not drag racing the S either :smile: I can't wait to be legally fast..
     
  4. Doug_G

    Doug_G Lead Moderator

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    It didn't even occur to me until now - there was no such paperwork for the Model S. For the Roadster I had to sign a sheet acknowledging that the battery had to be kept charged or else the warranty was void.
     
  5. andrewket

    andrewket 2014 S P85DL, 2016 X P90DL (soon 100)

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    Another possible reason for the MS to reduce max power draw < 20% SOC is that the individual cells are not discharged evenly. It might be that at 20% SOC for the PACK, 50% of the cells are already near ~0-5%. With fewer cells suppling current, the pack as a whole can no longer provide max current.

    Tesla has spent a ton of time on battery management. It wouldn't surprise me to learn that the pack is managed as ~10 separate zones, and that for a variety of reasons it is beneficial to rotate the order in which the zones are used for current. Individual cell aging, heating/cooling, etc. Warm up the zones that you're using NOW, then go heat the remaining zones later. The fact that you can add a second charger I think hints that this might be true. Rather than two chargers in series charging the entire pack, charger 1 takes ownership for zones 1-5, and charger 2 zones 6-10.

    Hrm, just realized this is in a thread about paperwork. Oops :)

    A
     
  6. Sousaphil

    Sousaphil P2,595

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    There is a battery clause in the MVPA, but not very detailed:

    By signing the Agreement, you acknowledge that you have read and understand the following disclosures:
    BATTERY
    Your vehicle has one of the most sophisticated battery systems in the world. It is the component that most distinguishes your
    vehicle from others on the road. Please remember to plug it in when not in use, and make sure that the power source is providing
    adequate power to the vehicle. Please consult your Owners Manual for detailed charging instructions. Please also note that an
    extension cord should never be used to charge your Vehicle.
     
  7. dsm363

    dsm363 Roadster + Sig Model S

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    Nothing extra to sign. After that who Max Drucker debacle, I e-mailed Tesla pleading them to include more plain language/stern warnings but looks like they are taking the less alarming approach.
     
  8. brianman

    brianman Burrito Founder

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    When I saved a copy from the web site back in September, the "ms_vehicle_warranty.pdf" had this to say on page 3, column 2:
    I'm not sure whether "zero state of charge" means zero (rated or ideal) miles or somewhat (unspecified) lower than that.
     
  9. dsm363

    dsm363 Roadster + Sig Model S

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    That is well worded then. Zero state of charge would mean 0 miles (ideal or rated) in Tesla's terms even though the battery isn't actually at zero.
     
  10. JohnQ

    JohnQ Active Member

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    As a customer, if I became subject to this clause, it would be easy to argue that a zero state of charge means the battery having no charge left--that is, zero electrical potential.
     
  11. bonnie

    bonnie Oil is for sissies.

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    My concern is the number of people posting on this forum about how low they've taken the battery in the first weeks of owning the car. This isn't something to be cavalier about ... battery damage is real And expensive. And with the number of posts about driving past zero, it's possible other people on the forum will think this is normal and okay.

    Going to be a huge hissy fit with the first person who finds out their battery isn't covered under warranty because they ignored this. ('hissy fit' = 'cue TEG')
     
  12. dsm363

    dsm363 Roadster + Sig Model S

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    #12 dsm363, Jan 29, 2013
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2013
    I don't think you'd win that battle. Tesla says not to run the car down to zero so that means zero miles where to car won't drive anymore. True zero would mean running to zero range then leaving your car unplugged for an extended time period. You'd definitely void your warranty there.
     
  13. brianman

    brianman Burrito Founder

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    He must be on his break. Here you go...

    hissy-fit.jpg
     
  14. JohnQ

    JohnQ Active Member

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    I completely agree with you and Bonnie regarding it being a bad idea and the (extreme) negative consequences of doing so. Was simply nitpicking the language that Tesla used since it is open to legal (and scientific) interpretation.
     
  15. ElSupreme

    ElSupreme Model S 03182

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    I agree with Bonnie on this. I used to fill up my ICE after it said 0 miles remaining more than half my fillups. But seeing a yellow battery level (I didn't get to red) is disconcerting to me. I think I'll end up using range mode instead of running into the yellow battery level in the future.

    I would like to know which is better for the batteries. I assume higher voltage and less current (full SoC) as long as they aren't sitting at high levels is much better for the batteries than low SoC.
     
  16. NigelM

    NigelM Recovering Member

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    Can't say I recall anything in the paperwork, but here's my take on driving to zero:

    It's possible, arguably even likely, that sooner or later anyone will be 20 miles from home (or nearest charger) with 30 miles on the battery and then hit bad weather, a pile-up, roadworks, a major traffic jam, that will cause them to drive to zero. If that in itself was damaging or dangerous to the battery then Tesla would have included a reserve....Big surprise!! That's what they did.

    However, driving below zero means eating into that reserve and, without knowing what lies around the next corner, the owner is taking a risk of damaging the battery. The more frequently you take that risk, the more chance you have statistically of damaging your battery.

    Takeaway: if you're stretched to the limit now and then don't fret about damaging your battery, but if you do this on a regular basis you might find yourself with a big problem..
     
  17. brianman

    brianman Burrito Founder

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    Nobody asked but my take is this...


    If you ask Tesla to clarify this language, they will (officially) say that 0 means 0 on the display not bricked/near-bricked.

    Does that mean that any time you service the vehicle they will check the logs to see if you ever went into the reserve? Probably not.

    Does it mean that if you take them to court for something that goes wrong after you go into the reserve they'll bring the logs in as evidence and potentially play the "you broke the warranty terms" card? It might; they have a company and a vision to protect.
     
  18. jerry33

    jerry33 S85 - VIN:P05130 - 3/2/13

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    Technically, they could do that. Practically, I doubt it unless someone did it many times. The bad will from using it as an excuse not to cover the battery warranty (which is all that would be affected) would lose them more than they would gain. Of course, they might if the owner was being a jerk, threatening them, etc. but it wouldn't do to have the forum full of posts about declined warranty because someone went to zero a couple of times over the battery's life.
     
  19. brianman

    brianman Burrito Founder

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    @jerry33 - I think we're on the same page. :)
     
  20. sp4rk

    sp4rk Banned

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    With previous ICE cars, I would experiment.
    I'd take a can of gas (not on a diesel car) with me and drive side roads to see just exactly where the E on the gas gauge was. Then put 5 gallons in.
    I'd never (intentionally) try that in an EV.
     

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