Model S Plaid Brakes Are Terrible!

[ohmman]

Moderator Note: 9 posts moved to snippiness. Some posts were just responding to ones that had to be moved and were orphaned. If there is anything you'd like to return to this thread, your posts are still available at the link. Please refrain from personal attacks, which are forbidden here. Thanks..

 

[lolachampcar]

I believe there are a good number of videos out there with people defeating stability control using dyno mode so there are ways to do it if you are so inclined.

edited to avoid any snippiness

 

[BIGDJE]

I will be upgrading to this kit soon as it comes out in few weeks. They are only 25 mins from my house so nice to drive over and see how they operate

RB OE Caliper BBK BBK (390/390) for Tesla S Plaid (P/N 2681-K & 2643-K) they make a bigger kit also with new 6 piston calipers. RB System BBK (420/390) for Tesla Plaid & LR; Front RB Calipers & Rear OE Calipers (Not Included) (P/N 2680-K & 2643-K)

 

[Aggmeister2010]

It would seem the professionals agree: Severely under-braked.

 

[lolachampcar]

It would seem the professionals agree: Severely under-braked.

I would agree the Plaid lacks brakes. I'm not convinced the "professionals" assessment of the car having "Camry" brakes is accurate.

Initially it felt like the brakes were as effective as buttered banana peals. It was easy to see that there was no pad bedded into the rotors which traditionally makes some brakes pretty much useless. Once I slowly worked up some heat and pad transfer, the brakes started to haul the car down reasonably well. My P90DL out stopped my Maranello and the Plaid now stops in Maranello type distances. Feel and initial bite are still horrible but the car actually does stop. That said, I have no doubt they would fade quickly if pushed and perhaps that is how the reviewer was achieving his Camry performance levels.

On a different note, the Plaid has a bunch more mechanical grip when compared to previous MS. I know, the bar is not terribly high but the car does work much better. Entering fast sweepers neutral on throttle shows the car to be pretty darn capable. Judging by the Nurburgring work, I suspect the magic for achieving a good lap time is to not over drive the car.

 

[sflgator]

Okay, so although I'm a complete dumb-dumb and novice in terms of brakes and tracking a car (twisty track that is as I've aken many of my previous ICE vehicles down the straight line 1/4 mi. track hundreds of times), I sought the advice of @lolachampcar to discuss this very same issue which is downright scary when trying to slow/stop the MS Plaid from higher speeds (even in a straight line). Although I trust him and he's probably 100% correct on what needs to be done with the oem brakes, pads, & rotors to get them to a better point for slowing/stopping this 1,020HP, 4800lb+ beast of a car...that is to stand on the brakes from higher speeds a few times to get the brake pad transfer onto the rotors so the pads can get a better bite when applied, I still feel very uneasy about doing this and getting the performance that's really necessary to slow it down from high speeds. It's just downright scary for me, especially after coming from a 3,850lb GT-R with large Brembro brakes which allowed the car to stop on a dime, from just about any speed with no issues!

So, I made another phone call to talk with the owner of Racing Brake in CA, and he agreed that for what I'm looking for (NOT tracking my MS Plaid; just daily driving with some "spirited driving" on occasion), he's VERY CONFIDENT that I'll be super happy with the improved performance of their new upgraded, drilled/slotted rotors (although same size as oem) AND new brake pads for the oem Tesla (Brembro) calipers. Plus, they're much lighter weight than the oem rotors of course which is never a bad thing on our heavy MS Plaids!

Although RB has larger MS Plaid rotor, brake caliper, and pad options, I'm not interested in spending another $7-$9k on a BBK and I'm not tracking my MS Plaid, so I don't think that investment is necessary to get my Plaid's brakes to a better performance level that I feel comfortable with. But the RB owner says these rotors they have for the MS Plaid are the same ones used in Porsche Cup cars and they offer a money back "satisfaction guarantee" on this upgraded Tesla MS Plaid (4) rotor/pad kit!

So, for $2,645 shipped (with the extra 5% off which took care of the expensive shipping charges, coupon code PO-5), I'll give them a try and report my thoughts and experiences back here on this thread after the new brake rotors & pads are installed...they should be shipping out to me next week.

See link below. @Aleks0404

Save 10% on car kit (380/365) for Tesla Plaid F&R (P/N 2679 & 2435) Due to the vehicle wt and speed, this stock size kit is NOT RECOMMENDED FOR TRACK RACING "Regardless" other components upgrade such as pads, brake fluid, cooling kit etc.

Save 10% on Car Kit (380/365) for Tesla Plaid & LR Front & Rear (P/N 2679-K & 2435P-K) - Front BBK (P/N: 2684) 390x33mm Rotor+ Larger Pads Upgrade Option Available

racingbrake.com

RB has already done the research and testing with the MS Plaid; they understand the issues with the oem brakes and here's their analysis...

Date: 11/01/2021Tesla S Plaid Brake Upgrade Option Matrix

		Front	Rear	How easy to Install?
		Rotor	Caliper	Brake Pad	Oversized?	Rotor	Caliper	Brake Pad	Oversized?
OE Specs	Standard	380x32 (1pc)	Brembo 4-piston	155x50	N/A	365x28 (1pc)	Mando 1-piston	102x48	N/A	-
RB Recommendation	Street	380x32 (2pc)	OE	XT910	No	365x28 (2pc)	OE	XT910	No	Parts swap
Spirited	390x33 (2pc)	OE+ (Spacer)	XT970	Yes	390x28 (2pc)	OE+ (Bracket)	XT910/XT970	Yes	Parts swap
Track	420x34 (2pc)	RB 6-piston	XT970/ST600	Yes	390x28 (2pc)	OE+ (Bracket)	XT970	Yes	Bleeding Req'd

Why Plaid brake is insufficient for its weight and HP by comparing to other muscle cars.

Forum review between XT910 (Street) and XT970 (Track) compounds:
Racing Brake XT910 vs XT970

Kit includes:

• 2 ea Front two piece rotors
• 2 ea Rear two piece rotors
• 1 car set street pads

ROTOR WT. COMPARISON (LBS)	FRONT	REAR	TOTAL/SIDE	TOTAL/CAR
OE	28.23	20.5	48.73	97.46
RB 2PC	20.83	17.27	38.1	76.2
WT. SAVING	7.4	3.23	10.63	21.26 (21.8%)

What can I expect from this kit in performance improvement and durability?.
Note: We recommend to install the complete rotor and pad kit to insure the optimal result, so no deduct on rotor or pad is available. (Brake pads can be purchased separately)
This kit is bundled with our best XT910 street performance pads - Combined with our lightweight two piece rotors can offer you multiple benefits in addition to the substantial "unsprung weight" saving not only can make you Plaid more agile in response and handling but more efficient (more mileage for the same charge):

• Will not fade on spirited driving.
• Can deliver more consistent brake (friction) torque even under elevated temperature, give you a peaceful mind under high speed or panic stopping.
• Excellent modulation - Very liner in brake control.
• Very low dust.
• No squeaking.
• Very durable - Highly resistant to wear.

See link below.

Save 10% on car kit (380/365) for Tesla Plaid F&R (P/N 2679 & 2435) Due to the vehicle wt and speed, this stock size kit is NOT RECOMMENDED FOR TRACK RACING "Regardless" other components upgrade such as pads, brake fluid, cooling kit etc.

Save 10% on Car Kit (380/365) for Tesla Plaid & LR Front & Rear (P/N 2679-K & 2435P-K) - Front BBK (P/N: 2684) 390x33mm Rotor+ Larger Pads Upgrade Option Available

racingbrake.com

 

[Trompazo]

Okay, so although I'm a complete dumb-dumb and novice in terms of brakes and tracking a car (twisty track that is as I've aken many of my previous ICE vehicles down the straight line 1/4 mi. track hundreds of times), I sought the advice of @lolachampcar to discuss this very same issue which is downright scary when trying to slow/stop the MS Plaid from higher speeds (even in a straight line). Although I trust him and he's probably 100% correct on what needs to be done with the oem brakes, pads, & rotors to get them to a better point for slowing/stopping this 1,020HP, 4800lb+ beast of a car...that is to stand on the brakes from higher speeds a few times to get the brake pad transfer onto the rotors so the pads can get a better bite when applied, I still feel very uneasy about doing this and getting the performance that's really necessary to slow it down from high speeds. It's just downright scary for me, especially after coming from a 3,850lb GT-R with large Brembro brakes which allowed the car to stop on a dime, from just about any speed with no issues!

So, I made another phone call to talk with the owner of Racing Brake in CA, and he agreed that for what I'm looking for (NOT tracking my MS Plaid; just daily driving with some "spirited driving" on occasion), he's VERY CONFIDENT that I'll be super happy with the improved performance of their new upgraded, drilled/slotted rotors (although same size as oem) AND new brake pads for the oem Tesla (Brembro) calipers. Plus, they're much lighter weight than the oem rotors of course which is never a bad thing on our heavy MS Plaids!

Although RB has larger MS Plaid rotor, brake caliper, and pad options, I'm not interested in spending another $7-$9k on a BBK and I'm not tracking my MS Plaid, so I don't think that investment is necessary to get my Plaid's brakes to a better performance level that I feel comfortable with. But the RB owner says these rotors they have for the MS Plaid are the same ones used in Porsche Cup cars and they offer a money back "satisfaction guarantee" on this upgraded Tesla MS Plaid (4) rotor/pad kit!

So, for $2,645 shipped (with the extra 5% off which took care of the expensive shipping charges, coupon code PO-5), I'll give them a try and report my thoughts and experiences back here on this thread after the new brake rotors & pads are installed...they should be shipping out to me next week.

See link below. @Aleks0404

Save 10% on car kit (380/365) for Tesla Plaid F&R (P/N 2679 & 2435) Due to the vehicle wt and speed, this stock size kit is NOT RECOMMENDED FOR TRACK RACING "Regardless" other components upgrade such as pads, brake fluid, cooling kit etc.

Save 10% on Car Kit (380/365) for Tesla Plaid & LR Front & Rear (P/N 2679-K & 2435P-K) - Front BBK (P/N: 2684) 390x33mm Rotor+ Larger Pads Upgrade Option Available

racingbrake.com

RB has already done the research and testing with the MS Plaid; they understand the issues with the oem brakes and here's their analysis...

Date: 11/01/2021Tesla S Plaid Brake Upgrade Option Matrix

		Front	Rear	How easy to Install?
		Rotor	Caliper	Brake Pad	Oversized?	Rotor	Caliper	Brake Pad	Oversized?
OE Specs	Standard	380x32 (1pc)	Brembo 4-piston	155x50	N/A	365x28 (1pc)	Mando 1-piston	102x48	N/A	-
RB Recommendation	Street	380x32 (2pc)	OE	XT910	No	365x28 (2pc)	OE	XT910	No	Parts swap
Spirited	390x33 (2pc)	OE+ (Spacer)	XT970	Yes	390x28 (2pc)	OE+ (Bracket)	XT910/XT970	Yes	Parts swap
Track	420x34 (2pc)	RB 6-piston	XT970/ST600	Yes	390x28 (2pc)	OE+ (Bracket)	XT970	Yes	Bleeding Req'd

Why Plaid brake is insufficient for its weight and HP by comparing to other muscle cars.

Forum review between XT910 (Street) and XT970 (Track) compounds:
Racing Brake XT910 vs XT970

Kit includes:

• 2 ea Front two piece rotors
• 2 ea Rear two piece rotors
• 1 car set street pads

ROTOR WT. COMPARISON (LBS)	FRONT	REAR	TOTAL/SIDE	TOTAL/CAR
OE	28.23	20.5	48.73	97.46
RB 2PC	20.83	17.27	38.1	76.2
WT. SAVING	7.4	3.23	10.63	21.26 (21.8%)

What can I expect from this kit in performance improvement and durability?.
Note: We recommend to install the complete rotor and pad kit to insure the optimal result, so no deduct on rotor or pad is available. (Brake pads can be purchased separately)
This kit is bundled with our best XT910 street performance pads - Combined with our lightweight two piece rotors can offer you multiple benefits in addition to the substantial "unsprung weight" saving not only can make you Plaid more agile in response and handling but more efficient (more mileage for the same charge):

• Will not fade on spirited driving.
• Can deliver more consistent brake (friction) torque even under elevated temperature, give you a peaceful mind under high speed or panic stopping.
• Excellent modulation - Very liner in brake control.
• Very low dust.
• No squeaking.
• Very durable - Highly resistant to wear.

See link below.

Save 10% on car kit (380/365) for Tesla Plaid F&R (P/N 2679 & 2435) Due to the vehicle wt and speed, this stock size kit is NOT RECOMMENDED FOR TRACK RACING "Regardless" other components upgrade such as pads, brake fluid, cooling kit etc.

Save 10% on Car Kit (380/365) for Tesla Plaid & LR Front & Rear (P/N 2679-K & 2435P-K) - Front BBK (P/N: 2684) 390x33mm Rotor+ Larger Pads Upgrade Option Available

racingbrake.com

I would be very interested in seeing some real world results from an upgrade to 2 piece rotors. These claims seem overly optimistic. Yes, 2 piece should dissipate heat better than one piece. But thus car has very small rotors compared to its mass, so it does seem like a lot of money for no upgrade in diameter or width.

I have used XT910 pads and did not like them at all on another car. They felt mushy and just didnt bite as good as OEM porsche pads when both hot and cold.

 

[sflgator]

I would be very interested in seeing some real world results from an upgrade to 2 piece rotors. These claims seem overly optimistic. Yes, 2 piece should dissipate heat better than one piece. But thus car has very small rotors compared to its mass, so it does seem like a lot of money for no upgrade in diameter or width.

I have used XT910 pads and did not like them at all on another car. They felt mushy and just didnt bite as good as OEM porsche pads when both hot and cold.

They have another kit coming out at the end of this month with 390mm/390mm rotors & pads for an extra $800 or so. I just need something that will make decent improvements in slowing/stopping the car in a straight line; don't need anything for track use. Worst case that could happen is I tell them I'm not satisfied and simply upgrade to the larger diameter rotor kit OR return them for my money back. IDK...something has to be done as the oem Tesla brakes are insufficient and we all know it.

 

[lolachampcar]

I would be very interested in seeing some real world results from an upgrade to 2 piece rotors. These claims seem overly optimistic. Yes, 2 piece should dissipate heat better than one piece. But thus car has very small rotors compared to its mass, so it does seem like a lot of money for no upgrade in diameter or width.

I have used XT910 pads and did not like them at all on another car. They felt mushy and just didnt bite as good as OEM porsche pads when both hot and cold.

The only thing I would add to the above is that the Plaid has larger rotors than the P90D with Plaid likely weighing just a tad less. It would seem the Plaid should be able to perform at least as well as the P90D which led me to believe it was rotor material - pad choice that was driving the issues. The fact that the new Plaid rotors do not surface rust up instantly like the older P90D rotors tells me Tesla is using a different rotor material to control surface corrosion (and thus near no brakes on initial application after something like a car wash and a half hour drying/rusting).

I think I posted some info on AP rotors which I have used in the past on many applications with great success. Here is something EBC has done for a different model-

EBC® - Fully-Floating Slotted 2-Piece Front Brake Rotors

Tesla Model X 2020, Fully-Floating Slotted Vented 2-Piece Front Brake Rotors by EBC®. Quantity: 2 Per Pack. EBC pads, rotors, and brake kits are the perfect choice for your vehicle, whether you''re cruising city streets or taking your four-wheel friend off-road.

www.carid.com

I am waiting for someone to do the aluminum hats for the AP rotors using AP's floating attach system. The rotors are cost effective and the hats would not be expensive in quantity 10 up. The attach system is top notch and the rotors are commercially available from multiple sources. There are not a lot of Plaids out there which may hinder someone building this combination but, as we have all pointed out, the need is there.

I look forward to the Gator's feedback. Thanks for doing this

 

[lolachampcar]

I went looking on other threads for more rotor info-
#56
#94 ( I ran a foul of RB)
#100 pads
#102 AP rotor part number
#6 Why I prefer AP's rotor attach method. It uses standard aircraft high temperature jet nuts so, like the AP rotors, easily sourced from many different outlets

There is more out there but I'm out of time.

 

[Trompazo]

I went looking on other threads for more rotor info-
#56
#94 ( I ran a foul of RB)
#100 pads
#102 AP rotor part number
#6 Why I prefer AP's rotor attach method. It uses standard aircraft high temperature jet nuts so, like the AP rotors, easily sourced from many different outlets

There is more out there but I'm out of time.

I contacted Essex, and they told me that they are getting a car to test fit for development of possible AP racing solutions.

That is what I will be waiting for, a Front AP Radical setup, and then maybe 2 piece rotors for the stock rear calipers. The front set up will likely be around $5500 based on their prices for other cars. That is just a rough guess.

 

[lolachampcar]

Using AP rotors in the stock size should come in under $1k even in small volumes. Different rotor material together with suitable pads should provide for better then P100D performance with the added benefit of reduced weight. Given my interests are street only that is what I am waiting for.

 

[lolachampcar]

Cross posted

The Plaid is a tad bit longer than my P90DL but is by no means not capable.

Testing the Tesla Model S Plaid: Milestones, Records, and Other Geeky Factoids​

For example, 0–60 mph is achieved in less than 100 feet.
www.motortrend.com
"

• Interestingly, on regular asphalt, the car needs 104 feet and 2.38 seconds to stop from 60 mph, averaging 1.16 g in the opposite direction. We don't dive into detail like this often, but this might be another first: a car that accelerates from 0-60 mph in a shorter time and distance than it achieves 60-0 mph."

 

[lolachampcar]

The above is where I ended up with my car. At first it just would not stop. I carefully bedded the brakes and got some good pad transfer and now it stops reasonably well when needed. It just feels like crap while doing it. Given I almost only use the brakes in emergency situations on the street, this is good enough for me for now (until some cost effective two piece AP rotors are available). It is most certainly not a $5k problem but then I do not track a 5k lb street cars.

 

[charliepmayer]

Is regen a factor when comparing brake specs with ICE cars?

 

[Gninoked]

I think there's a couple issues here - on the one hand the car is setup with street brakes. There's nothing 'wrong' with that as long as everyone who buys it understands what they are getting. The heat capacity and pad compounds are not setup for repeated stops from 100+ miles an hour like you experience running a road course. They are fine for drag racing (where you really want small brakes for performance) and *might* be ok for a 45 second autocross run. Everyone should remember that the track brakes are on the Plaid+ which Tesla has decided not to sell (for now.) That said even though the capacity is lower, I believe there's also some sort of underlying issue with the brake system overall which you and others are feeling.

Our teamPGR car is up at Mountain Pass Performance doing some development work and they were on track this week again (last week is documented here:

this weeks video still to come) and Sasha experienced a bit of brake failure but was able to capture the data and send it to the relevant parties.

I also believe the first version of track mode is getting closer and I understand that it will have a substantially different set of capabilities and tuned parameters for traction control (hopefully to include torque vectoring,) stability control, and ABS. I believe they are already on to v.next for that as well as we can see in the Ring testing, so we will likely see more updates over time as was the case with the Model 3 Performance.

Also for everyone to keep in mind, there was an issue with braking on the Model 3 related to the ABS before too - and Tesla was able to resolve it with their suppliers relatively quickly once they were able to replicate it. (Tesla Model 3 Gets CR Recommendation After Braking Update)

 

[impastu]

It would seem the professionals agree: Severely under-braked.

Hearing his voiceover on the challenges of tracking the plaid w/o track mode has me wondering how many oh sugar moments the Nürburgring driver had getting a complete lap without putting it into the trees.

 

[MFrunkerOG]

4 days with the plaid - brakes scare me. Maybe they aren’t bedded like I’d like them to be.

Strange thing is that AUtopilot brakes really well compared to my foot. Can’t understand why!

 

[lolachampcar]

I got some feedback indicating there are regulatory issues that have driven copper out of pads which is a contributor to the problem. In addition, there were changes to the rotors at the factory to address surface corrosion which confirmed one of my theories.

 

[PlaidLambo]

We know the oem calipers are undersized along with the oem pad material....and we do not know if the oem dsc/traction control limits the car enough as compared to the model 3 .....not sure we need a track mode software on model S plaid to hit the track but I suspect there is a drawback regardless which heats brakes as dsc kicks in......I track my procharged gt350 and would be great to try out the plaid on the track.........

I think I will try installing the XT970 track pads, put Motul660 brake fluid and leave all else the same .....and test on the street and track combo...........my only fear is the loud squealing noise the xt970 may produce on the street per reviews....... what do you all think?