Model S Plaid range discussion.

[charliepmayer]

Plaid trip report - 3200 miles (West Texas - Jackson Wy - Keystone SD - Central Texas)

Pdf versions of spreadsheets uploaded for examination - comments, please.

Old news summary: flat batteries charge faster.

News: Plaid can routinely get sufficient charge with little or no tapering - great time saver.
Plaid seems a tad more efficient than 100D - spreadsheet attached - not yet enough Plaid data.

Plaid: 90% = 350 miles Haven't yet charged to 100%.

Easy to get into data overload with this - where do you stop?

 

[WilliamG]

70 would be fine as well

Indeed. I just hate to give up too much performance, no matter how slight it may be.

 

[Muzzman1]

I got this message from Service this morning "Good morning, the battery pack arrived, sooner than expected, so good news! We are extremely busy at this time and are doing out very best to address your concerns. Your vehicle is in our service queue. We appreciate your patience art this time"

Hopefully the Service manager will follow through with his promise to get the car back to me the day the pack arrives!

I got the car back. The pack is representing 400mi at 100% with 19" wheels, this is a 1st.
On my "Remote" app it shows the pack capacity is 96.4kWh.
I am doing my 1st charge to 90%. The pack has never seen more than 33% since they installed it.
Needless to say, I am thrilled that I have a car that is capable of more than a 250 mi drive!
It took exactly 2 weeks from the drop off day to get it back.

Total time at the service center on this issue was 3 weeks.

 

[BobbyRitz]

Then you’re just fine! Your new battery is reading correctly, and there’s no need to cell balance!

What I would still do is drain the battery down to a low state of charge (20% will be low enough), and then charge to 90% and see what you end up with. If it stays within a mile or two or 375 miles (equivalent full charge) then you’re good to go. For me, this was not the case, so a new HV battery is ready for when I return from my trip.

Finally got down to 22% and now I'm charging back to 90%. Five hours of charging left, but app shows 341 miles of range when done (which is slightly better than the 337 miles of range initially obtained when I originally charged to 90%). I'll report back tomorrow morning with actual range when charging is complete.

 

[aerodyne]

I'm seeing a lot of folks talk about needing to charge and discharge to balance the pack. It is true the the SvC has been giving this advice for years. It is also true that this will warm the pack and decrease the rounding error (Car shows 2 sig figs, when you turn say 80%, BMS just turned 79.6%) and increase RR slightly. I think it is a tactic to get you off the phone or out the door.

It's been well discussed for years, by respected folks (057 et al) that the packs do not require this to balance. The BMS balances the pack all the time as needed.

Staying at a constant SoC will result in small BMS errors, but this does not mean the pack capacity is different. Calibration is different than balancing.

My car was stored several times at least 2 months at 55%, "lost" about 5 miles. As soon as I charged to 70%, right back up to 265 RM

Of course, it could be there is something drastically different with the Plaid pack BMS, but it seems unlikely they would break something in the BMS that wasn't broken. Same cells, slightly different chemistry per Elon.

Also interesting that no one seems to be using SMT or other CAN bus reader. You should be able to see all the voltages of the 72 strings in the pack. Major pack problems will be obvious as voltage differences.

 

[Muzzman1]

I'm seeing a lot of folks talk about needing to charge and discharge to balance the pack. It is true the the SvC has been giving this advice for years. It is also true that this will warm the pack and decrease the rounding error (Car shows 2 sig figs, when you turn say 80%, BMS just turned 79.6%) and increase RR slightly. I think it is a tactic to get you off the phone or out the door.

It's been well discussed for years, by respected folks (057 et al) that the packs do not require this to balance. The BMS balances the pack all the time as needed.

Staying at a constant SoC will result in small BMS errors, but this does not mean the pack capacity is different. Calibration is different than balancing.

My car was stored several times at least 2 months at 55%, "lost" about 5 miles. As soon as I charged to 70%, right back up to 265 RM

Of course, it could be there is something drastically different with the Plaid pack BMS, but it seems unlikely they would break something in the BMS that wasn't broken. Same cells, slightly different chemistry per Elon.

Also interesting that no one seems to be using SMT or other CAN bus reader. You should be able to see all the voltages of the 72 strings in the pack. Major pack problems will be obvious as voltage differences.

Yeah, so I have one of those "Maxwellautotechnology" canbus cables with BLE ODB connector. Unfortunately it does not work on the plaid. The cable fits in the car, but no data comes across. I believe the one I have is missing one or two pairs of pins that the plaid needs that my older MS did not.
Im on the hunt for one that will work, but to no avail. Yet.
On another note regarding balancing etc. @WilliamG can confirm that he saw mV changes happen when the car sat at 90% charge for a few days, per SvC's suggestion to determine if his pack is bad.
Myself @WilliamG @boonedocks as well as @dennis all are have or are getting new HV packs due to substantial pack imbalances.
BTW, SvC attempted to reset my BMS, and what that did is bring the BMS to think the pack was fresh and new. That lasted 1 charge cycle. By the time I wore the pack down it started showing massive pack imbalance and limited range.

 

[MarcG]

I got the car back. The pack is representing 400mi at 100% with 19" wheels, this is a 1st.
On my "Remote" app it shows the pack capacity is 96.4kWh.
I am doing my 1st charge to 90%. The pack has never seen more than 33% since they installed it.
Needless to say, I am thrilled that I have a car that is capable of more than a 250 mi drive!
It took exactly 2 weeks from the drop off day to get it back.

Total time at the service center on this issue was 3 weeks.

Nice, congrats! I also saw 400 in the app when sliding the charge limit around in the app.

The one and only time I actually charged to 100% it yielded 397.12 miles.

 

[aerodyne]

Yeah, so I have one of those "Maxwellautotechnology" canbus cables with BLE ODB connector. Unfortunately it does not work on the plaid. The cable fits in the car, but no data comes across. I believe the one I have is missing one or two pairs of pins that the plaid needs that my older MS did not.
Im on the hunt for one that will work, but to no avail. Yet.
On another note regarding balancing etc. @WilliamG can confirm that he saw mV changes happen when the car sat at 90% charge for a few days, per SvC's suggestion to determine if his pack is bad.
Myself @WilliamG @boonedocks as well as @dennis all are have or are getting new HV packs due to substantial pack imbalances.
BTW, SvC attempted to reset my BMS, and what that did is bring the BMS to think the pack was fresh and new. That lasted 1 charge cycle. By the time I wore the pack down it started showing massive pack imbalance and limited range.

Need to reach out to Amund and others on the SMT thread and see if anyone has figured out the pinouts for the plaid now that Dyno mode has gone away with the last update.

Per 057, the pack balances all the time as needed. Did @william see no balancing at SoC less than 90%?

I see less imbalance some time after a drive, esp if the car is plugged in for a few days, even at 55%.

Of concern to me is that the number of pack failures seem higher with the refresh than any other model introduction. Makes me think this was the real reason for the refresh delay.

I'd want the ability to monitor the pack before I take delivery of a refresh.

 

[WilliamG]

Need to reach out to Amund and others on the SMT thread and see if anyone has figured out the pinouts for the plaid now that Dyno mode has gone away with the last update.

Per 057, the pack balances all the time as needed. Did @william see no balancing at SoC less than 90%?

I see less imbalance some time after a drive, esp if the car is plugged in for a few days, even at 55%.

Of concern to me is that the number of pack failures seem higher with the refresh than any other model introduction. Makes me think this was the real reason for the refresh delay.

I'd want the ability to monitor the pack before I take delivery of a refresh.

That’s correct, I saw no (obvious) BMS balancing at less than 90%. For example my car has not been driven in 1.5 weeks now, plugged in at 70%. You can see how there’s been no obvious change to projected range since I last drove on September 29. If you look at the gradual rises of projected range prior to that this was all in the 90-100% SoC.

Now I can’t say for sure either way, but in my experience and based on what Tesla’s engineering team informed my local service center to communicate to me, it requires 90%+ SoC for balancing. Driving down to a lower SoC and back up to 90% will either show a consistency of charge/range or it will show the true imbalance in the pack as me, @dennis @Muzzman1 etc found out. This isn’t for cell balancing, but just to see how the pack deals with the low SoC. We lost oodles of range doing this with our borked battery packs, so I feel very confident that this process of discharge/charge does unearth pack problems quickly.

 

[MarcG]

Need to reach out to Amund and others on the SMT thread and see if anyone has figured out the pinouts for the plaid now that Dyno mode has gone away with the last update.

Here you go:

Diagnostic Port Index

Nope! The diag connector on the 2021+ refresh cars actually turn off the 12v when the car sleeps. This is new behavior and fantastic for our purposes here. (the previous s/x diag 12v was always on) Excellent! @JWardell heads-up, I just ordered a dual-bus canserver from you :)

teslamotorsclub.com

 

[aerodyne]

That’s correct, I saw no (obvious) BMS balancing at less than 90%. For example my car has not been driven in 1.5 weeks now, plugged in at 70%. You can see how there’s been no obvious change to projected range since I last drove on September 29. If you look at the gradual rises of projected range prior to that this was all in the 90-100% SoC.

Now I can’t say for sure either way, but in my experience and based on what Tesla’s engineering team informed my local service center to communicate to me, it requires 90%+ SoC for balancing. Driving down to a lower SoC and back up to 90% will either show a consistency of charge/range or it will show the true imbalance in the pack as me, @dennis @Muzzman1 etc found out.

Until we have more data, hard to say. Without the ability to see cell voltages, hard to know if a range increase is due to balancing, BMS calibration, or even temp fluctuations from charging.

I pinged the smart folks on the SMT thread, perhaps they can weigh in.

 

[WilliamG]

Until we have more data, hard to say. Without the ability to see cell voltages, hard to know if a range increase is due to balancing, BMS calibration, or even temp fluctuations from charging.

I pinged the smart folks on the SMT thread, perhaps they can weigh in.

I have the ability to see min/max brick voltages since I haven’t updated the car yet from 2021.32.5. Sadly, not individual cells.

Btw I edited my post above to provide a bit more clarity. My car lost a massive amount of range doing an SoC drain and then charge. @dennis and @Muzzman1 found the same. It’s been easy to repeat the issue. Cell balancing at whatever percentage is less concrete than the easily shown problem of low SoC charging to high SoC. That really seems to break the battery if it has an issue.

 

[aerodyne]

I have the ability to see min/max brick voltages since I haven’t updated the car yet from 2021.32.5. Sadly, not individual cells.

Btw I edited my post above to provide a bit more clarity. My car lost a massive amount of range doing an SoC drain and then charge. @dennis and @Muzzman1 found the same. It’s been easy to repeat the issue. Cell balancing at whatever percentage is less concrete than the easily shown problem of low SoC charging to high SoC. That really seems to break the battery if it has an issue.

No doubt there is a problem, but is it cell balance or BMS calibration?

On your current firmware, do you see modules only or all 72 strings?

Don't have a refresh yet, trying to get up to speed...

 

[BobbyRitz]

I got the car back. The pack is representing 400mi at 100% with 19" wheels, this is a 1st.
On my "Remote" app it shows the pack capacity is 96.4kWh.
I am doing my 1st charge to 90%. The pack has never seen more than 33% since they installed it.
Needless to say, I am thrilled that I have a car that is capable of more than a 250 mi drive!
It took exactly 2 weeks from the drop off day to get it back.

Total time at the service center on this issue was 3 weeks.

Excellent - all the best for a good ownership experience from this point forward.

 

[BobbyRitz]

Finally got down to 22% and now I'm charging back to 90%. Five hours of charging left, but app shows 341 miles of range when done (which is slightly better than the 337 miles of range initially obtained when I originally charged to 90%). I'll report back tomorrow morning with actual range when charging is complete.

The app shows the exact same 337 miles of range this morning. This has been an interesting exercise and has helped me to better understand the battery pack. Thanks all.

 

[WilliamG]

No doubt there is a problem, but is it cell balance or BMS calibration?

On your current firmware, do you see modules only or all 72 strings?

Don't have a refresh yet, trying to get up to speed...

The BMS is in charge of the cell balancing, no? I’m talking just about cell balancing.

On my firmware I just see min/max brick voltages. Attached is an example of how bad my car is.

 

[BobbyRitz]

I'd want the ability to monitor the pack before I take delivery of a refresh.

Here's where being an ICE Neanderthal came in handy. I really don't understand the technology at a granular level (improving every day thanks to this forum), but I did have faith prior to ordering my S that Tesla would promptly take care of any battery issues. If they hadn't done so in the past, this company would have failed years ago.

Little did I know I would have to challenge my placed faith so quickly--but Tesla stepped up and did the right thing. In classic Tesla fashion, the process wasn't pretty or easy. But it seems to be working out in the end.

I would hate to have enough knowledge as to want to monitor or otherwise test the battery pack before delivery. My OCD would never allow me to be satisfied.

 

[aerodyne]

Here's where being an ICE Neanderthal came in handy. I really don't understand the technology at a granular level (improving every day thanks to this forum), but I did have faith prior to ordering my S that Tesla would promptly take care of any battery issues. If they hadn't done so in the past, this company would have failed years ago.

Little did I know I would have to challenge my placed faith so quickly--but Tesla stepped up and did the right thing. In classic Tesla fashion, the process wasn't pretty or easy. But it seems to be working out in the end.

I would hate to have enough knowledge as to want to monitor or otherwise test the battery pack before delivery. My OCD would never allow me to be satisfied.

I can't recommend obsessing over the battery.

Unlike the Endless Delivery Disorder, it never stops.

The 85 pack "gates" forced my hand.

Set charge to percent, don't worry about the pack, that's the job of the BMS.

Don't park near a Chevy Bolt.... That's the riskiest thing you can do at this point.

 

[aerodyne]

The BMS is in charge of the cell balancing, no? I’m talking just about cell balancing.

On my firmware I just see min/max brick voltages. Attached is an example of how bad my car is.

Good Info on the screen. If you never have to update the car, you will keep Dyno mode.

If you go to a SvC, they will invariably update no matter what you tell them.

In order to balance properly, the BMS has to calibrate. If stored at a low and steady SoC, if may be off a bit, but return when the car is driven and charged over say, a 20% range.

All the above is based on much experience with the older packs. No one has dissected a refresh pack, but it will happen at some point.

 

[WilliamG]

Good Info on the screen. If you never have to update the car, you will keep Dyno mode.

If you go to a SvC, they will invariably update no matter what you tell them.

In order to balance properly, the BMS has to calibrate. If stored at a low and steady SoC, if may be off a bit, but return when the car is driven and charged over say, a 20% range.

All the above is based on much experience with the older packs. No one has dissected a refresh pack, but it will happen at some point.

Yeah. I’ve no doubt that service is going to update my software when they install the new pack. At the end of the day though as long as it the pack stays relatively consistent that’s all I want to see.