Model S Price Increase discussion

[JasonZDel]

as it stands the model S is no longer worth it, this is a maxed out M5 vs the MS

i am actually quite angry with the price hike, ive been freely advertising for tesla by offering rides and showing my P85, i got a ton of people ready to purchase the car, but with the price hike of over $20K in Canada, forget it, $20K can buy another car.
not only that, they havent improved the design of the sunroof (it has the worse wind noise of any sunroof ive ever used) but now it costs another $1200 more, the audio system is crap and has always been crap for $1000, and now it costs $2800.

i can no longer recommend this car because its not actually "better" when you factor in the price. (before it was the same price but you had less to maintain and no gas, but now the M5 is faster with more power and costs less for TCO)

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I will probably get flamed since this is my first post. However, I have been a LONG time lurker and recent joiner of the site in anticipation of ordering my very own P85 (or maybe even P85+) as my birthday present in a few months.

As someone who has not yet joined the MS club - and I'm sure many of you will remember when you were on the cusp of ordering - this price difference WILL matter. I will not go so far as AC1K did and say the car is not worth it. I have no authority since I don't own one. However, even with a budget of $120k to spend on a car, this does make me second guess my infatuation with this car. I will now have to reconsider my first love, the CLS63. As AC1K illustrates, one can no longer justify the MC based on economic reasons. One must justify the car despite unfavorable economic reasons.

I have no doubt that this is the car of the future. I am no longer convinced that the car is a better bang for your buck.

 

[dsm363]

Yes, that's correct. One of the last major manufactures to include maintenance.

People make a big deal about reduced maintenance cost with the MS, but doesn't it cost $600 for the annual service? If so, that's right in line with an ICE car.

Disclosure: Still own my F10 M5 and recent MS P85+ owner.

They have said yearly maintenance isn't required but I'd still have it done. If you prepay for 4 years it is $475/year.

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I will probably get flamed since this is my first post. However, I have been a LONG time lurker and recent joiner of the site in anticipation of ordering my very own P85 (or maybe even P85+) as my birthday present in a few months.

As someone who has not yet joined the MS club - and I'm sure many of you will remember when you were on the cusp of ordering - this price difference WILL matter. I will not go so far as AC1K did and say the car is not worth it. I have no authority since I don't own one. However, even with a budget of $120k to spend on a car, this does make me second guess my infatuation with this car. I will now have to reconsider my first love, the CLS63. As AC1K illustrates, one can no longer justify the MC based on economic reasons. One must justify the car despite unfavorable economic reasons.

I have no doubt that this is the car of the future. I am no longer convinced that the car is a better bang for your buck.

Welcome! I agree the bang for your buck argument is definitely lessened or gone at the top end you are looking at but you can still consider gas savings. Over a high performance vehicle with a V8 you're looking at maybe $2-4k a year depending on how much you drive. That helps a little and may bring it back in line to break even with your $120k price point. Don't forget the $7,500 federal tax credit. With the tax credit and assuming $2,000/year in gas and $500 in electricity and 5 years of ownership you are looking at $15,000 off so could break even with a $120k car in 5 years in this example. Obviously the math will vary on the individual. Also, the Texas triangle should be covered with Superchargers by early next year.

 

[Trnsl8r]

I'm a bit befuddled over the forced bundling of the twin chargers with HPWC at $2700...

I ordered the twin chargers, but never looked twice at the HPWC. The twin chargers were to be able to take advantage of any 70A chargers on the road, but at home I have no need for more than the 26mph or so my 14-50 offers. The prospect of trying to offload a HPWC on ebay just because you wanted to future-proof your car with twin chargers can't be very attractive. Wondering why they did that...?

 

[Lloyd]

I'm a bit befuddled over the forced bundling of the twin chargers with HPWC at $2700...

I ordered the twin chargers, but never looked twice at the HPWC. The twin chargers were to be able to take advantage of any 70A chargers on the road, but at home I have no need for more than the 26mph or so my 14-50 offers. The prospect of trying to offload a HPWC on ebay just because you wanted to future-proof your car with twin chargers can't be very attractive. Wondering why they did that...?

Not only that, but what about people that already have an HPWC and are ordering a 2nd car, or have sold one or are replacing a car in an accident! They surely do not need another!!

 

[Anzir]

Wondering why they did that...?

For the same reason they charge extra for fog lights on a close-to-6-figure car... because there is demand and because they can.

 

[onesixeight]

Not only that, but what about people that already have an HPWC and are ordering a 2nd car, or have sold one or are replacing a car in an accident! They surely do not need another!!

I saw in another thread that Tesla is telling people that they can return it if they don't need the HPWC in the package. But I agree, I like the old package better and skip the hassle of returning the unwanted HPWC

 

[AmpedRealtor]

I have no doubt that this is the car of the future. I am no longer convinced that the car is a better bang for your buck.

I don't think the Model S ever represented a "better bang for your buck", but I could be mistaken...

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I saw in another thread that Tesla is telling people that they can return it if they don't need the HPWC in the package. But I agree, I like the old package better and skip the hassle of returning the unwanted HPWC

And who pays the shipping on the returned HPWC that was never needed in the first place? Exactly...

 

[PatP]

I'm a bit befuddled over the forced bundling of the twin chargers with HPWC at $2700...

I ordered the twin chargers, but never looked twice at the HPWC. The twin chargers were to be able to take advantage of any 70A chargers on the road, but at home I have no need for more than the 26mph or so my 14-50 offers. The prospect of trying to offload a HPWC on ebay just because you wanted to future-proof your car with twin chargers can't be very attractive. Wondering why they did that...?

+1 You're right. Doesn't make sense. Totally unrelated. I don't need twin chargers at home, I need them on the road. We have many 90 amps here in Canada. Also, what if I'm buying a new car car (like upgrading to a P85+) and already have an HPWC?

 

[PatP]

I will probably get flamed since this is my first post. However, I have been a LONG time lurker and recent joiner of the site in anticipation of ordering my very own P85 (or maybe even P85+) as my birthday present in a few months.

As someone who has not yet joined the MS club - and I'm sure many of you will remember when you were on the cusp of ordering - this price difference WILL matter. I will not go so far as AC1K did and say the car is not worth it. I have no authority since I don't own one. However, even with a budget of $120k to spend on a car, this does make me second guess my infatuation with this car. I will now have to reconsider my first love, the CLS63. As AC1K illustrates, one can no longer justify the MC based on economic reasons. One must justify the car despite unfavorable economic reasons.

I have no doubt that this is the car of the future. I am no longer convinced that the car is a better bang for your buck.

I think you're right. What some are forgetting is that some people are buying the S as an alternative to another luxury car (not because they want to be green). I know many people like that. Before, you could always say the S was about the same price as a BMW 5 series for each version (ex. P85 vs M5) and that on top of that you would save gas.

Now, it's really a question of paying much more for an electric car. Maybe the market is big enough for this and that it's a clever decision. Only the future will tell.

 

[hans]

Exactly

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I thought that maintenance was included in the price of a BMW for the first 4 years??

You are correct. If you are only buying for 4 years its a completely different discussion. I have owned two BMWs 5 series cars for over 12 years each and the repair bills add up over time, starting right about when the warranty expires. Window regulators, plastic components in the cooling system, leaking valve gaskets, leak prone power steering reservoir located right above the alternator, pretty much every bushing in the suspension system, disappearing pixels on the main console, failed final stage unit in the HVAC, the list goes on and on. This is not just my BMWs either, these are well knows issues that every used car buyer needs to check out when purchasing an older Bimmer. Anyone want to buy my 1999 540iT for what I put into it in the last 18 months?

Granted we don't yet know what issues an older Tesla will have in comparison. I bought the 4 year extended warranty so I don't have to care.

Honestly the Tesla doesn't handle quite as well as my e39 does but I don't regret making the switch at all. If I feel the need to be more connected to the road again I just jump in the Miata.

 

[SFOTurtle]

You are correct. If you are only buying for 4 years its a completely different discussion. I have owned two BMWs 5 series cars for over 12 years each and the repair bills add up over time, starting right about when the warranty expires. Window regulators, plastic components in the cooling system, leaking valve gaskets, leak prone power steering reservoir located right above the alternator, pretty much every bushing in the suspension system, disappearing pixels on the main console, failed final stage unit in the HVAC, the list goes on and on. This is not just my BMWs either, these are well knows issues that every used car buyer needs to check out when purchasing an older Bimmer. Anyone want to buy my 1999 540iT for what I put into it in the last 18 months?

Granted we don't yet know what issues an older Tesla will have in comparison. I bought the 4 year extended warranty so I don't have to care.

Honestly the Tesla doesn't handle quite as well as my e39 does but I don't regret making the switch at all. If I feel the need to be more connected to the road again I just jump in the Miata.

I had a 1993 BMW 525i that had, I believe, all if not all of the issues you mentioned. Got rid of it earlier this year rather than continue to pay thousands of dollars (for non-dealer labor and parts that I generally tried to purchase online) every year. I too bought the extended warranty for the Tesla just because of the unknown, and because electronic problems on cars are typically very expensive to fix.

 

[ChriZ]

View attachment 27464

Looks like this guy just added every Model S option available with no regard to comparing feature to feature with the M5. I configured a typical setup for the M5 and configured the Model S the same way and comes out cheaper after federal tax rebates.

And in regards to the recent option price hikes, i think different buyers will value different options. If you don't like it, just don't get it. At the end of the day, the base price of the car and battery is what really matters and the main reason why you should buy this car.

2014 M5
BASE MSRP $90,900
+ Black Full Merino Leather w/AnthraciteA lcantara Headliner $3,500
+ Executive Package $5,500
+ Destination & Handling:$925
= Total MSRP as Built $100,825

Model S Base Price With $7,500 Federal Tax Credit $62,400
+ Grey Metallic Paint $750
+ All Glass Panoramic Roof $2,500
+ 21" Grey Turbine Wheels $4,500
+ Piano Black Décor Included
+ Black Performance Leather Seats $2,500
+ BATTERY 85 kWh Performance $20,000
+ OPTIONS Tech Package $3,500
+ Smart Air Suspension $2,250
+CHARGING Supercharger Enabled Included
+ TOTAL Destination and Regulatory Doc Fee $1,170
= VEHICLE PRICE $99,570

 

[brianman]

(1) I will probably get flamed since this is my first post.
(2) I have no authority since I don't own one.

(1) Hopefully not.
(2) Hogwash. You seem to be a decent fellow. Your voice is welcome regardless of what you have or haven't bought or reserved.

Welcome to the forum.

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And who pays the shipping on the returned HPWC that was never needed in the first place? Exactly...

Perhaps you can drop it off at the nearest service center and/or store. They'll work this out and have clearly expressed the intent to make this right. Give them some time. Decaf.

 

[AustinPowers]

Except that in my opinion the driving experience makes those other cars feel like nicely optioned dinosaurs. I don't care how many options it has, I'm not buying any car again that has to downshift to accelerate to pass. The Model S is just a far superior driving experience.

I'm not argueing with that at all.
But if many other everyday usage aspects keep nagging me, then at some point it becomes so much that it's annoying for a car of such a price tag. Of such a car I expect not only a superior driving experience (which imho I can also get from almost any well motorized modern sedan of 70K Euro and up), but a great ownership experience all around.
And when I pay so much money and get (among other things)
a) no power folding mirrors (at all)
b) no usable trunk lighting (as standard)
c) no fold-down rear-seat armrest (at all)
d) no fog lights (as standard)
e) no floormats (as standard)
f) no center console (as standard)
g) no parcel shelf (as standard)
h) no adjustable headrests
i) no seats with enough side bolstering
j) a pano roof with lots of strange wind-noises
k) possible early wear and tear on the b-pillar covering
l) headliner that doesn't fit properly all around
m) mandatory (expensive) yearly service (in contrast to my current "once every three or four years")
(Those are just the first things that come to mind)

then the everyday user experience (especially when driving dynamics aren't really that important in daily usage, with heavy traffic, small parking spaces, narrow roads, etc.) is hampered quite a bit.

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Oh, you're European. Sorry about that. I didn't even look at your sig. Apples to Oranges. Going to a gas station once every two months? What is smogging a car? Why so much maintenance? Because my car had 112,000 miles (not km) and engines break down like crazy at those mileages. With gas only 6 times a year you probably put on under 1000 miles a year so none of this makes any sense to you.

Never mind. Nothing to see here. My bad.

No offence taken at all.
By the way, I drive about 6,500 miles a year, in some years 10,000. True, that's not much. It's mainly due to the fact that for the past years most of my daily commute is now by public transport (train, subway), and for longer family trips we take our other car (minivan).
Plus my car get's a great mpg ratio. On one gas (diesel actually) tank I can go about 625 miles.

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For $90k you get a full size sedan that goes the distance and is fueled with sustainable energy and doesn't require one drop of fossil fuel. If that is not important to you, and it sounds to me like you have no interest in supporting sustainable transport or lessening the world's reliance on fossil fuels, the Model S is not for you. If all you can do is compare this car to Audi and BMW and Mercedes and not consider the fact that Audi, BMW and Mercedes do not offer a viable EV competitor to Model S, you are basing your decision on the wrong factors in my opinion.

Tesla has captured 8% of the luxury car market in the US according to a new report. This is incredible success. I'm surprised that Americans want to be more environmentally conscious than our European counterparts.

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I never realized that cup holders trump lessening our reliance on fossil fuels, saving the environment and cleaning up the air that we breath. I'm glad we have our priorities straight.

Well, sorry to destroy your illusions, but the major part of electricity worldwide (with the exception of some lucky and wise countries like Norway) is still produced (and even with the current change towards renewables will be for decades to come) by burning fossil fuels, mainly coal, oil or gas or - even worse - by nuclear power.
As long as that fact remains, driving a Model S is in no way better for the environment (or consciousness) than driving a modern ICE car with a great actual mpg. (We live 5 miles from a large coal power station, so the air we breathe wouldn't be much better by getting rid of my ICE car).

And of course we care about the environment. Our house is heated by a heatpump, we reuse our collected rainwater, and if it was technically possible and feasible (which with our house it isn't) we would use solar power for heating and electricity as well. We drive cars with great mpg's, we use the bike or public transport wherever possible, we grow a lot of our own fruits and vegetables in our garden, and so on and so forth.
So of course I would like to drive an even more environmentally friendly car (which the Model S isn't - see above), but even so a car for me has to fulfill certain expectations (which the Model S doesn't - anymore), not that they would be overly luxurious. (for example I wouldn't call expecting power folding mirrors on such a huge car a stretch of the imagination, nor expecting a parcel shelf as standard when even any small hatchback has one).

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I don't think the Model S ever represented a "better bang for your buck", but I could be mistaken...

At least Tesla has always (and still does) tried to describe the Model S as financially advantageous over an ICE.

 

[sub]

Point made. Your reasons and expectations to buy an MS are clearly different from others here. I would never consider buying a gas car that cost more than 30, maybe 40k max. My current vehicles are an average of 15 years old and total value of 12k. I just spent more than twice that to put solar on my roof so when I buy my tesla (waiting for X) I will be driving for free off renewable energy. Something had to be done to change the path that the world is on regarding energy, I'm willing to step up with my cash. I don't mind the new option pricing at all, I may configure a car slightly different but I wouldn't enjoy it any less.

You seem to have made up your mind, I have no problem with that though its disappointing to see someone else unwilling to contribute to the future over such minor things. I hope once you have some time to think about it more you will swing back towards the MS, my daughter would appreciate it.

 

[tdiggity]

Will pre-increase owners be able to take advantage of this with trading in, I wonder? If my P85 costs 12k more now and it's 6 months old with 6k miles, it seems like I should break even minus the taxes on a new p85...

Edit: I just realized my extended warranty isn't transferable to the trades in vehicle and so I'd have to pay 4k for that. But aside from that there could be an interesting arbitrage deal that older owners could play with.

 

[wdimagineer]

Will pre-increase owners be able to take advantage of this with trading in, I wonder? If my P85 costs 12k more now and it's 6 months old with 6k miles, it seems like I should break even minus the taxes on a new p85...

Edit: I just realized my extended warranty isn't transferable to the trades in vehicle and so I'd have to pay 4k for that. But aside from that there could be an interesting arbitrage deal that older owners could play with.

I'm stopping by Menlo Park tomorrow to inquire about this. Took delivery 6/28. Have around 1,100 miles on the clock. I think retrofitting the options I'm now missing will cost more than me just trading it in for a new build.

I'll let you know how it goes.

 

[AustinPowers]

You seem to have made up your mind, I have no problem with that though its disappointing to see someone else unwilling to contribute to the future over such minor things. I hope once you have some time to think about it more you will swing back towards the MS, my daughter would appreciate it.

As I have said and elaborated I am more than willing to contribute to the future. My next car will definitely by driven by alternative energy, just the Model S is not the car I had hoped for. Currently I am hoping the Gen III will be that car. In the meantime I am looking into the Zoe, the e-Golf and the BMW Active Tourer Hybrid as in-between alternatives, with the Zoe being my favorite at the moment.

I have two daughters by the way, and they would appreciate if the majority of Americans would take the positive path that you and many others here have taken, instead of wasting so much of our earth's resources like most Americans still do without caring, making the US the biggest energy consumer in the world.

 

[dsm363]

I'm not argueing with that at all.
But if many other everyday usage aspects keep nagging me, then at some point it becomes so much that it's annoying for a car of such a price tag. Of such a car I expect not only a superior driving experience (which imho I can also get from almost any well motorized modern sedan of 70K Euro and up), but a great ownership experience all around.
And when I pay so much money and get (among other things)
a) no power folding mirrors (at all)
b) no usable trunk lighting (as standard)
c) no fold-down rear-seat armrest (at all)
d) no fog lights (as standard)
e) no floormats (as standard)
f) no center console (as standard)
g) no parcel shelf (as standard)
h) no adjustable headrests
i) no seats with enough side bolstering
j) a pano roof with lots of strange wind-noises
k) possible early wear and tear on the b-pillar covering
l) headliner that doesn't fit properly all around
m) mandatory (expensive) yearly service (in contrast to my current "once every three or four years")
(Those are just the first things that come to mind)

then the everyday user experience (especially when driving dynamics aren't really that important in daily usage, with heavy traffic, small parking spaces, narrow roads, etc.) is hampered quite a bit.

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Well, sorry to destroy your illusions, but the major part of electricity worldwide (with the exception of some lucky and wise countries like Norway) is still produced (and even with the current change towards renewables will be for decades to come) by burning fossil fuels, mainly coal, oil or gas or - even worse - by nuclear power.
As long as that fact remains, driving a Model S is in no way better for the environment (or consciousness) than driving a modern ICE car with a great actual mpg. (We live 5 miles from a large coal power station, so the air we breathe wouldn't be much better by getting rid of my ICE car).

And of course we care about the environment. Our house is heated by a heatpump, we reuse our collected rainwater, and if it was technically possible and feasible (which with our house it isn't) we would use solar power for heating and electricity as well. We drive cars with great mpg's, we use the bike or public transport wherever possible, we grow a lot of our own fruits and vegetables in our garden, and so on and so forth.
So of course I would like to drive an even more environmentally friendly car (which the Model S isn't - see above), but even so a car for me has to fulfill certain expectations (which the Model S doesn't - anymore), not that they would be overly luxurious. (for example I wouldn't call expecting power folding mirrors on such a huge car a stretch of the imagination, nor expecting a parcel shelf as standard when even any small hatchback has one).

Where do you come up with the Model S isn't better for then environment that most gas cars? The Model S even on 100% coal is better for the environment than all high performance sedans. Most V8s or M5 equivalents don't get 35mpg or so combined. You said 'even worse - by nuclear' when that would be the best in terms of CO2 and other pollutants (nuclear waste disposal is a different matter). Most of the US isn't 100% coal at least, not even close.

As to your list, I could come up with a list like that for almost any car but it definitely sounds like this isn't the car for you. Some of your list are fit and finish issues from early production which are less of a problem now. I don't know of any ICE that only requires service every 3 or 4 years and still lets you keep your warranty intact. On my old Volvo and VW at least, I had to bring it in every year (was included in price of car though) or the warranty was void.

With the amount you drive, would think the Model S would work quite well but you wouldn't save much money in fuel of course. Given the long list of mandatory options you have I agree, you should probably look to something else. I don't see how the Zoe would be a better driving experience though or have more power.

 

[AustinPowers]

Where do you come up with the Model S isn't better for then environment that most gas cars? The Model S even on 100% coal is better for the environment than all high performance sedans.

I haven't got a high performance car, nor would I ever need or want one. I am comparing the Model S (non-Perf!) to what it would replace here, my Diesel car with great fuel efficiency. As the electricity mix which powers the Model S includes a lot of fossil fuel power, it isn't really very good for the environment just because it hasn't got an exhaust pipe.

You said 'even worse - by nuclear' when that would be the best in terms of CO2 and other pollutants (nuclear waste disposal is a different matter).

Of course, nuclear power is one of the least CO2 laden, but nuclear waste is the most dangerous thing on the planet, so I am very happy that at least in Germany we are outphasing this horrendous technology.

I don't know of any ICE that only requires service every 3 or 4 years and still lets you keep your warranty intact.

Strange, I don't know of any car that would need yearly maintenance, not even close.

Some of your list are fit and finish issues from early production which are less of a problem now.

Judging by some of the threads in the "Interior & Exterior" section, those issues still remain, along with some new ones I didn't even mention.

With the amount you drive, would think the Model S would work quite well but you wouldn't save much money in fuel of course. Given the long list of mandatory options you have I agree, you should probably look to something else. I don't see how the Zoe would be a better driving experience though or have more power.

The options I listed imho are not mandatory in general, but mandatory for any car in the price range of a Model S.
And I never said the Zoe would be a better driving experience or have more power. As I have said, I don't need a car with the power of a Model S (which I think is grossly overpowered anyway. No one needs a car with a weight of over two tons that can accelerate to 100 kph in less than six seconds.
The Zoe costs about a quarter (!) of the Model S, while being quite well equipped, spacious and powerful enough for my everyday use, and the range is ample as well.

By the way, I have a test-drive with a Zoe this Saturday, with the Model S on Sept 4.
Then I can make real-life comparisons that are backed by personal experience. Will open a thread about the experience then.