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FlatSix911

Porsche 918 Hybrid
Jun 15, 2015
6,707
6,220
Silicon Valley
More here... https://electrek.co/2019/07/09/tesla-not-refresh-model-s-x-minor-changes-elon-musk/

upload_2019-7-9_21-45-55.png
 

fasteddie7

Member
Aug 12, 2016
861
1,079
uniontown PA
i think tesla has more in common with phone and computer manufacturers then automakers. they remind me a lot of apple. wanting to vertically integrate everything, innovation through iteration, and software/hardware synergy. that's why the stock market can't get it right with them, they treat them like an traditional automaker.
 

ReddyLeaf

Active Member
Mar 19, 2014
1,704
2,891
WA State
Interesting reading... https://electrek.co/2019/07/09/tesla-mysterious-production-capacity-increase/

The company is “making preparations” to raise output at its auto plant in Fremont, California, Tesla’s automotive president, Jerome Guillen, said in an email to employees on Tuesday. “While we can’t be too specific in this email, I know you will be delighted with the upcoming developments.” The executive also commented on Tesla’s production output, efficiency, and quality over the last quarter. Bloomberg report:

Guillen’s message also said that the company “hit new records in all production lines for output and efficiency” in the most recent quarter, both in Fremont and in Nevada, and that “quality is also reaching record highs.”
Preparations for early release of Model Y? Sales by year end? 3rd Quarter?
 

Simon21

Member
Apr 7, 2019
319
101
Los Angeles
You’ve adequately described the visual modifications, but that refresh came with LOTS of under the hood changes and part revisions, so much so that Tesla publishes a completely different catalog for the post-refresh S.

Certainly not a full-platform refresh or anything, but far from just a visual facelift too.
What were the other changes?
 

R.S

Active Member
Mar 8, 2015
1,196
1,004
Munich, Bavaria, Germany
Which I think is a smart move. Tesla still has no meaningful competition in the markets the S/X competes with. The Jaguar I-Pace and AUDI e-Tron do not compete with the S/X in terms of range, power, cargo capacity, energy efficiency, Auto Pilot-like features, or ease of long distance travel. There is no reason for Tesla to invest in an S/X refresh this year. Yes, sales were down in the Q1 2019 but they are trending back up, and the EV sedan/SUV market in the $100K price range is finite. It is unrealistic to expect that cars that costly can continue to experience large sales volume increases indefinitely. I remain amazed that Tesla can sell as many S/X as they currently are producing.

The Audi ist still ramping up, but beats S and X sales in Europe easily. And at least compared to the S, cargo capability is similar.

And you are right, range is less and power is less. Still more people buy it, despite sharp price decreases by Tesla.

So Tesla really needs a more luxurious interior. Luxury cars have never been bought because of range. That’s still different with EVs. But once the others have 300 miles of range, Tesla won’t really compete with just having more range.

So if Tesla wants to stay in the luxury market, they need to make their cars real luxury cars.

There is still time, but they better have some ideas already.
 

R.S

Active Member
Mar 8, 2015
1,196
1,004
Munich, Bavaria, Germany
any real numbers that audi outselling tesla in eu?
Not whole Tesla, just S/X.

June EU sales aren’t in yet and May is an unfair comparison (since Tesla sales are usually back quarter heavy). But here you have May numbers:
EV Sales: Europe May 2019

But Norway sales for June are in:
EV Sales: Norway June 2019
The e-Tron was sold more often, than S and X combined this year, despite really just starting off in March.

Model 3 sales are still uncontested. But maybe just because there is no alternative.
 
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wdolson

Supporting Member
Jul 24, 2015
7,637
10,256
Clark Co, WA
The Audi ist still ramping up, but beats S and X sales in Europe easily. And at least compared to the S, cargo capability is similar.

And you are right, range is less and power is less. Still more people buy it, despite sharp price decreases by Tesla.

So Tesla really needs a more luxurious interior. Luxury cars have never been bought because of range. That’s still different with EVs. But once the others have 300 miles of range, Tesla won’t really compete with just having more range.

So if Tesla wants to stay in the luxury market, they need to make their cars real luxury cars.

There is still time, but they better have some ideas already.

Nobody is even close to competing with Tesla on range yet. The Hyundai Kona is the only EV that has cracked 250 miles range (US EPA rating). Both the iPace and e-Tron fall below that. The Model S is up to 370 miles and may be higher by the time anyone else gets past 300.

Not whole Tesla, just S/X.

June EU sales aren’t in yet and May is an unfair comparison (since Tesla sales are usually back quarter heavy). But here you have May numbers:
EV Sales: Europe May 2019

But Norway sales for June are in:
EV Sales: Norway June 2019
The e-Tron was sold more often, than S and X combined this year, despite really just starting off in March.

Model 3 sales are still uncontested. But maybe just because there is no alternative.

Most of the time luxury cars sell best in their home markets. I don't believe Lincoln or Cadillac even try in Europe. European luxury car buyers want home grown cars. The Model 3 and Y are good for the European market, they're smaller and more reasonably priced. But as the S and X get more competition in Europe, they will lose market share.

I still think there is a possibility that Tesla might drop the S and X entirely for at least a couple of years to concentrate on the Model 3 and Y. When they brought back redesigned cars, there would be a lot of pent up demand and sales would be strong the first couple of years at least. The S and X were stepping stones towards mass production. Keeping them is nice, but they can make more money converting the S/X lines to Model Ys and cranking out lots of those.
 

darxsys

Member
Dec 12, 2018
497
482
Seattle
Nobody is even close to competing with Tesla on range yet. The Hyundai Kona is the only EV that has cracked 250 miles range (US EPA rating). Both the iPace and e-Tron fall below that. The Model S is up to 370 miles and may be higher by the time anyone else gets past 300.



Most of the time luxury cars sell best in their home markets. I don't believe Lincoln or Cadillac even try in Europe. European luxury car buyers want home grown cars. The Model 3 and Y are good for the European market, they're smaller and more reasonably priced. But as the S and X get more competition in Europe, they will lose market share.

I still think there is a possibility that Tesla might drop the S and X entirely for at least a couple of years to concentrate on the Model 3 and Y. When they brought back redesigned cars, there would be a lot of pent up demand and sales would be strong the first couple of years at least. The S and X were stepping stones towards mass production. Keeping them is nice, but they can make more money converting the S/X lines to Model Ys and cranking out lots of those.

The S is simply way too big for European cities. As a European, one of my favorite things about America are huge roads. I am currently in Europe driving a rented Passat and I really wish I just rented a Golf or something even smaller. The roads here can be so small and narrow I can barely pass through occasionally. I can’t even imagine driving my S here. It makes a lot of sense that the 3 is way more popular with Europeans. Not only because of the price but convenience.
 

Ken7

Member
Feb 11, 2017
880
863
New York
The Audi ist still ramping up, but beats S and X sales in Europe easily. And at least compared to the S, cargo capability is similar.

And you are right, range is less and power is less. Still more people buy it, despite sharp price decreases by Tesla.

So Tesla really needs a more luxurious interior. Luxury cars have never been bought because of range. That’s still different with EVs. But once the others have 300 miles of range, Tesla won’t really compete with just having more range.

So if Tesla wants to stay in the luxury market, they need to make their cars real luxury cars.

There is still time, but they better have some ideas already.
I would fully expect a luxury German EV to outsell an American luxury EV in Europe. Color me unimpressed. ;)
 
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PPower19

Member
Jun 19, 2019
37
26
Denmark
Guess time will tell when the Porsche Taycan hit the market later this year. One thing is to get orders another is being able to deliver to customers within a reasonable timeline (battery and production capacity).
 

SucreTease

Teslarian
Jul 11, 2017
735
1,077
Huntsville, Alabama
Guess time will tell when the Porsche Taycan hit the market later this year. One thing is to get orders another is being able to deliver to customers within a reasonable timeline (battery and production capacity).
But I can guarantee you that the press will not be reporting on Porche's production shortfalls like they did on Tesla's.
 

sandpiper

Active Member
Sep 25, 2014
2,833
2,141
Ontario, Canada
But I can guarantee you that the press will not be reporting on Porche's production shortfalls like they did on Tesla's.

Live by the sword, die by the sword. Tesla actively cultivates a rapacious social media and conventional media following as their primary marketing channel. That benefits them when things are going well, but can blow up on them when it doesn’t. :)
 

computerchuck

Supporting Member
Apr 20, 2017
324
1,249
Utah
I wonder what Tesla Kim has to say... ;)

Great question! Here your answer...

Why you shouldn’t be surprised Elon says NO to Model S & X Refresh - Like Tesla

Here is a snippet...

"I have no doubts that our inside source drove a Model S and X with what you and I would call significant changes to its batteries, interior and drivetrain in the Mojave desert this past spring. I believe some, if not all of these features will be implemented in the lineup in the near future. But how near and how bundled will these features be when they are implemented into the line up are Teslas call.

Most of you who’ve followed tesla for some time, know by now that if you wait for the next best tesla, you’ll always be waiting for a tesla.

Just adding some context to those who seem to take a tweet as a definitive line to what we call a refresh and how Tesla has historically defined that word to its vehicles in recent history."
 
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sillydriver

Member
Oct 19, 2014
839
629
Middleburg, va
I have a four year old P85D, which I still love. I would like its ultimate replacement to be another MS. However I am much less inclined to replace my current car unless what is offered is at least somewhat restyled, inside or out. Without that, I would feel I was paying a great deal of money to get nothing new. Yes, there have been many little improvements since I bought my car, but there are also what I consider to be downgrades from what I now own, ranging from no leather to no yacht floor to poorer headlights (than my HID) to no sunroof to no alcantara on the dash to - most important of all - 48 amp charging vs. 80 in my car. And since I have done all the charging for the car's 50k miles at home, this is a big deal, particularly since I sometimes charge between trips in the middle of the day. So with nearly four years left on the extended warranty I have no reason to purchase a new MS unless the current car degrades into an unfixable lemon, which it has not done yet. I am perfectly willing to wait the company out for multiple years. Yet with all this said, I would seriously consider plunking down $100k+ on a new performance MS if there was an interesting restyling of the car. Call this irrational psychology, but then most human psychology is irrational. But the point is that I don't think my psychology is unique, which is something that is well understood by all the other car companies that actually refresh and restyle their cars. Unfortunately, I don't think this is understood by the brilliant engineer who runs Tesla, which is a loss for me, since I don't get to buy a new car, and a little loss for him, because he doesn't get more revenue from me, or from all the other owners who feel the same way that I do.
 

Magellan55

Member
Aug 30, 2018
380
351
Chapel Hill, NC
I'm wondering if range is much of a big deal in the EU? Not just because the EU has better charging infrastructure - do Europeans take as many 500/1000/2000 mile trips as Americans?
 
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