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R.S

Active Member
Mar 8, 2015
1,196
1,004
Munich, Bavaria, Germany
Partly because of brand loyalty.

Partly because there is no cheaper compelling electric Audi. If Audi had Model 3 clone at Model 3 prices I very much doubt Etron outsells Model S/X.

Partly because Model 3 is cannibalizing Model S sales.

And only partly because some prefer Audi interior.

Of course it’s always multiple factors! But whatever the reason, Model S sales have dropped a lot. Maybe this is the sustainable level, but I think they could sell more.
 

DocZ

Member
Oct 4, 2014
293
380
CA
I doubt they will be advertising the Taycan much for a few years. Production will be limited and demand is currently high. When they do start advertising they will probably push the advantages the Taycan has over Tesla equivalents, but they have to be careful about making things up because that will come back to bite them. Few Porsche owners ever take their cars to the track, but most Porsche fans pay attention to what those who have taken the cars to the track have to say. If Porsche claims better performance from the Taycan and a Model 3P can trounce it on the track, news will get out. Though I expect the Taycan's track performance to be pretty good, Porsche does know what they are doing there.

I don't read car magazines, but I don't recall ever seeing a Porsche ad on TV or non-car magazines. Maybe they do in Europe? I've seen VW and Audi ads many times. Advertising also involves talking up the car to the car media, and they probably will be doing that.

The Taycan might end up being like the Chevy Bolt, a flash in the pan at first, then a year later they have trouble selling them. In the end it probably won't put much of a dent in Tesla sales. Production is too limited and it's too expensive for what you get. Die hard Porsche fans will declare it the best EV ever made, but the rest of the world will probably be "meh" about it.

At the end of the day it's essentially a high performance touring sedan, but it lacks both range and space compared to the Model S Performance and lacks range compared to the Model 3 Performance, and until high speed CCS becomes common, charging on the road is going to be a poorer experience than Tesla's. The price is going to be on par with a Model S Performance.

It’s not so simple, and certain parts of what you said are simply not true. Porsche will undoubtedly advertise. Even the crappy Audi etron with 204 miles is heavily advertised and in some publications even suggested as better than Tesla. The comparisons and how much “better” the Porsche is, will be all over the place. I already know multiple people who are huge Porsche fans who will be getting that car, and they will never buy a Tesla. This type of sentiment will spread like wildfire. Tesla needs to continue to innovate on the S/X.
 

wdolson

Supporting Member
Jul 24, 2015
7,645
10,284
Clark Co, WA
It’s not so simple, and certain parts of what you said are simply not true. Porsche will undoubtedly advertise. Even the crappy Audi etron with 204 miles is heavily advertised and in some publications even suggested as better than Tesla. The comparisons and how much “better” the Porsche is, will be all over the place. I already know multiple people who are huge Porsche fans who will be getting that car, and they will never buy a Tesla. This type of sentiment will spread like wildfire. Tesla needs to continue to innovate on the S/X.

The world is full of brand loyalty. I have a friend who is still driving a Chrysler minivan because her husband is loyal to Chrysler despite the fact that van has caused her one headache after another.

The Taycan will almost certainly be well built. Porsche's production quality is among the best in the industry. It will probably have very good handling because that's another area Porsche does well. Because of the loyal Porsche fan base, the car will sell well at least initially, which I thought I said, but maybe not. It may be a strong seller overall.

As to whether Tesla needs to compete with Porsche or not to survive, I would like to see the S/X continue, but Tesla ultimately has to do what is best for the long term health of the company, and selling expensive sports cars is not where their core business lies. Tesla's future is not in the luxury market, it's in the mainstream car and truck market.

Elon's plan he laid out near the beginning was to make a very expensive, limited production car to get started (the Roadster), then a more affordable car with medium production (the S/X) and finally mass produce a car at a price near the middle of the market (the 3/Y). They are also branching off into trucks and energy, but ultimately the goal is to be major players in those fields too.

The luxury car market is very crowded with a lot of players competing for a very limited customer base. The percentage of the population who can afford a $100K car to begin with is less than 1%. At least half the people who can afford a $100K luxury car wouldn't buy one unless it offered something much more than what luxury cars usually offer (like the Model S did). There are also people who are willing to buy a $100K car, but are biased against EVs.

The luxury EV segment is going to be very crowded soon with a lot of competitors vying for very few buyers. Tesla had that niche all to itself for many years because the competition was very slow to catch up. It might be in Tesla's best interest to discontinue the S and X for a while and concentrate on mass producing cars. In a few years come out with an all new S/X designed from the ground up with all the lessons learned to be the best EV.
 

AmpedRealtor

Well-Known Member
Jun 30, 2013
6,397
3,368
Phoenix, AZ
A car is more than a tail light.

Yes it is, but when one model's tail light shows individual LEDs while its two siblings show off uniform light pipes, that means one model has an aged design that has not kept pace with the others. You are okay spending $100k on a car like that. I am not.

… the model S is still the most beautiful car you can buy (my honest opinion) even if they haven’t changed much (visually) the last 3 years.
While that may be true for you, it is also true that the Model S was designed over 7 years ago and its age is showing compared to Model X and Model 3. Both have updated exteriors and interiors that Model S lacks. Model 3 has significantly fewer parts and electrical harnesses than Model S due to technological innovation over the last 7 years. Model 3 is technologically superior to Model S at this point in time. It's kind of silly that the car which costs half as much is technologically superior and has the newest bits.
 

Speedr117

Member
Oct 12, 2017
367
1,051
Tampa
The world is full of brand loyalty. I have a friend who is still driving a Chrysler minivan because her husband is loyal to Chrysler despite the fact that van has caused her one headache after another.

The Taycan will almost certainly be well built. Porsche's production quality is among the best in the industry. It will probably have very good handling because that's another area Porsche does well. Because of the loyal Porsche fan base, the car will sell well at least initially, which I thought I said, but maybe not. It may be a strong seller overall.

As to whether Tesla needs to compete with Porsche or not to survive, I would like to see the S/X continue, but Tesla ultimately has to do what is best for the long term health of the company, and selling expensive sports cars is not where their core business lies. Tesla's future is not in the luxury market, it's in the mainstream car and truck market.

Elon's plan he laid out near the beginning was to make a very expensive, limited production car to get started (the Roadster), then a more affordable car with medium production (the S/X) and finally mass produce a car at a price near the middle of the market (the 3/Y). They are also branching off into trucks and energy, but ultimately the goal is to be major players in those fields too.

The luxury car market is very crowded with a lot of players competing for a very limited customer base. The percentage of the population who can afford a $100K car to begin with is less than 1%. At least half the people who can afford a $100K luxury car wouldn't buy one unless it offered something much more than what luxury cars usually offer (like the Model S did). There are also people who are willing to buy a $100K car, but are biased against EVs.

The luxury EV segment is going to be very crowded soon with a lot of competitors vying for very few buyers. Tesla had that niche all to itself for many years because the competition was very slow to catch up. It might be in Tesla's best interest to discontinue the S and X for a while and concentrate on mass producing cars. In a few years come out with an all new S/X designed from the ground up with all the lessons learned to be the best EV.

My personal experience with Porsche (before we had kids) was not so great, so I'm not sure I agree with you on the "production quality" part. Bought brand new. It remains the only car to ever leave us stranded (ie had to be flatbedded to the dealership). Happened within the first month. And we've had a TON of cars. Also, same car, a year later, we hit a large reflector (raised dome shaped) that tweaked the suspension. Two different Porsche dealerships couldn't fix it (ate rear tires like crazy). Also, they nickle and dime you to death on options. I mean, who knew it costs $400 to have the center wheel caps "colored", or have an emblem on your seats headrests. I personally have never seen a Porsche that wasn't at least $4k more than the base price. Having said all that, the more EVs, the better!
 

wdolson

Supporting Member
Jul 24, 2015
7,645
10,284
Clark Co, WA
My personal experience with Porsche (before we had kids) was not so great, so I'm not sure I agree with you on the "production quality" part. Bought brand new. It remains the only car to ever leave us stranded (ie had to be flatbedded to the dealership). Happened within the first month. And we've had a TON of cars. Also, same car, a year later, we hit a large reflector (raised dome shaped) that tweaked the suspension. Two different Porsche dealerships couldn't fix it (ate rear tires like crazy). Also, they nickle and dime you to death on options. I mean, who knew it costs $400 to have the center wheel caps "colored", or have an emblem on your seats headrests. I personally have never seen a Porsche that wasn't at least $4k more than the base price. Having said all that, the more EVs, the better!

Every brand has lemons. JD Power and Consumer Reports consistently rank Porsche among the top brands. Though Porsches are expensive to maintain. All sports car brands are very expensive to keep.
 
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rory breaker

Member
Aug 11, 2016
389
657
TX
So we all know a refresh is coming eventually.. .and it makes sense they would release in the beginning of a qtr vs end, and it ain’t this qtr after Elon’s statement....so prob some minor color changes, maybe AC seats back, etc....think I’m gonna bite on a Raven now, and f it if a refresh gets released I’ll trade it in and eat it. Tired of waiting, my 2016 is creaky and the suspension is rough, I want the new *sugar* :)
 

jdw

Supporting Member
Jun 1, 2015
696
1,332
Vancouver
"Model 3 is technologically superior to Model S at this point in time. It's kind of silly that the car which costs half as much is technologically superior and has the newest bits.


It's not like there have been no improvements in the S over the last seven years. A short list, off the top of my head, of things the 3 either doesn't have or that have been improved in the S over the last few years.


Smart Adaptive Air Suspension
All Aluminum Body
HEPA Filtration
Auto Presenting Door Handles
Auto Trunk
Range: 370Miles/600km
Ceramic Wheel Bearings
Improved suspension components
2 Displays; Larger Display
2.2 Sec 0-60
Much Quieter/Better Built
Vegan Interior/New Interior Finishes/Console
MCU 2
AP3
PSRM Motors
TeslaCam/Sentry
LED Headlights
Efficiency Improvement - I'm seeing 160-180wh/km (~265wh.mile); showing 750km/~450 mile range on trips.

Of course there are features & benefits to the 3 that the S doesn't have - they are different cars, but a 2019 S is nothing like even a 2015 S, never mind a 2012 S. Except perhaps the taillights ... :) and I do get your reference to the underlying technology in the 3 being more modernised.
 
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Inside

Member
May 10, 2017
64
62
United States
It seems like some people on here are assuming that the free Ludicrous will end with the interior refresh. Why do some people think this? I'm more inclined to think it's permanent. In fact, I think it'll just become free for anybody (even new buyers). The 100D is quicker than it used to be, and cheaper than it used to be, so the P100DL performance delta is smaller than ever now. It's pretty obvious by the new prices that Model S demand doesn't support those old $150K prices, Tesla has exhausted all the rich folk who'd spend that kind of money. Just my opinion, of course. I just don't think that cost cutting measures on the interior (resulting in a more minimalist interior) is going allow Tesla to raise the prices back up. Would love to hear other's thoughts regarding if/when the free Ludicrous goes away, and if so, what the new Ludicrous price is going to be.

I called it back on May 29th. Free Ludicrous for everyone.
 

ICUDoc

Active Member
May 19, 2015
1,717
1,131
Sydney NSW
The order page has changed, not just pricing:

Model S Performance includes:

  • Quicker acceleration: 0-100 km/h in 2.6s
  • Ludicrous Mode
  • Enhanced Interior Styling
  • Carbon fiber spoiler
Wonder what "Enhanced Interior Styling" means. It's only on the Performance Model S.
 
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Whyvas

New Member
May 9, 2018
3
0
O
Yes it is, but when one model's tail light shows individual LEDs while its two siblings show off uniform light pipes, that means one model has an aged design that has not kept pace with the others. You are okay spending $100k on a car like that. I am not.


While that may be true for you, it is also true that the Model S was designed over 7 years ago and its age is showing compared to Model X and Model 3. Both have updated exteriors and interiors that Model S lacks. Model 3 has significantly fewer parts and electrical harnesses than Model S due to technological innovation over the last 7 years. Model 3 is technologically superior to Model S at this point in time. It's kind of silly that the car which costs half as much is technologically superior and has the newest bits.

I honestly think the P3D could outperform a P100DL but they limit it with software to keep the S owners happy.
 
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MP3Mike

Well-Known Member
Feb 1, 2016
15,851
35,471
Oregon
In my opinion, the elimination of the lower end S is signaling that a new battery is incoming and the S will move further upmarket.

That is what people said last time they discontinued the standard range S&X... :rolleyes:

My guess is that it is exactly what Tesla said: to simplify the lineup. From CNBC:

"To make purchasing our vehicles even simpler, we are standardizing our global vehicle lineup and streamlining the number of trim packages offered for Model S, Model X and Model 3," Tesla said in a statement.

"We are also adjusting our pricing in order to continue to improve affordability for customers."
 
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DocZ

Member
Oct 4, 2014
293
380
CA
That is what people said last time they discontinued the standard range S&X... :rolleyes:

My guess is that it is exactly what Tesla said: to simplify the lineup. From CNBC:

It’s never exactly what Tesla said. They always have something cooking.
 

Mark_T

Active Member
Nov 1, 2017
1,292
1,129
UK
I think this is probably one of those rare occasions when you can just believe what Elon has said.

There really is nothing major planned for the S in the short term.

It wouldn't make much sense to invest time in the S at the moment, they need the production capacity for other projects.

Best to let the sales numbers on the S slide for a while and focus on delivering the newer volume car projects.
 

computerchuck

Supporting Member
Apr 20, 2017
324
1,249
Utah
In my opinion, the elimination of the lower end S is signaling that a new battery is incoming and the S will move further upmarket.

I disagree with your analysis, if you mean within the next six months. A new battery would most likely require a significant amount of re-engineering, specifically of the chassis. This goes well beyond taillights and bumpers. The 2170 cells just wont fit to give you the same or increased capacity. Though I admit that they could make a custom (Maxwell Tech) battery that would indeed fit inside the existing chassis, but seems unlikely. Fingers crossed - I would love to see a 400+ mile model S tomorrow. But outside of new battery tech, as you mentioned, this seems unlikely for at least the short term. I truly hope I'm wrong.
 
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