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Jake C

Member
Apr 8, 2016
27
70
Grand Forks, ND
While I think it would be great to see the 2170 cells in the S/X, I don’t think that is coming anytime soon.

2020 S/X’s will get the Maxwell dry electrode 18650 next which, according to them, would.

1. Improve energy density ~15% (370mi to 420mi, Elon with have a tweet for that) over current batteries (~250 Wh/kg to ~300 Wh/kg) with path to ~500 Wh/kg.
2. 10-20% cost reduction with easy integration into current production line.
3. Double Battery Life expectancy (90% after 1,500 cycles so after ~600-650k mi driven would still charge to 380mi from 420mi)

This seems like the best path to satisfying S/X shoppers and minimal CAPEX to implement. Also I’m unsure if dry electrode tech allows for higher V3 charging (Maxwell mentions improved discharge rates but I haven’t seen anything about charging ability).
 
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ICUDoc

Active Member
May 19, 2015
1,709
1,116
Sydney NSW
1. Improve energy density ~15% (370mi to 420mi, Elon with have a tweet for that) over current batteries (~250 Wh/kg to ~300 Wh/kg) with path to ~500 Wh/kg.
2. 10-20% cost reduction with easy integration
3. Double Battery Life expectancy
Well, that sounds bloody excellent. I'm ready when they are.
Hurry up, then, Elon!
 

rory breaker

Member
Aug 11, 2016
388
651
TX
While I think it would be great to see the 2170 cells in the S/X, I don’t think that is coming anytime soon.

2020 S/X’s will get the Maxwell dry electrode 18650 next which, according to them, would.

1. Improve energy density ~15% (370mi to 420mi, Elon with have a tweet for that) over current batteries (~250 Wh/kg to ~300 Wh/kg) with path to ~500 Wh/kg.
2. 10-20% cost reduction with easy integration into current production line.
3. Double Battery Life expectancy (90% after 1,500 cycles so after ~600-650k mi driven would still charge to 380mi from 420mi)

This seems like the best path to satisfying S/X shoppers and minimal CAPEX to implement. Also I’m unsure if dry electrode tech allows for higher V3 charging (Maxwell mentions improved discharge rates but I haven’t seen anything about charging ability).

How do you know this hits in 2020?
 

ucmndd

Well-Known Member
Mar 10, 2016
6,659
12,510
California
2170 batteries are 5 mm taller. Elon previously stated they can fit in existing battery space.

Coming back to this one more time:

I came across this quote in the recent Motor Trend interview with Elon and Franz. Leads me to believe it’s absurd to think there’s 5mm extra space in the pack that wasn’t accounted for.

Interview: Elon Musk Reflects on Significance of Tesla Model S - MotorTrend

EM: We definitely put everything into it, and I want to give a lot of credit also to the engineering team. Because you can design something that looks good but doesn't work. So it needs to look good and work well, and in order to have a lot of interior room in the car, we had to make the drive unit light and tight. So we put maximum amount of effort into just compressing the package for the motor, gearbox, and inverter, getting the pack in there, in the floor.

FvH: And that's something we talked about on a daily basis. How do we get one more millimeter outside of the pack, one more, one more. Just relentlessly driving down to—

EM: Yeah, particularly the height, we were just down to fractions of a millimeter. So everything's like point how many millimeters high in order to get everything ... 'cause you've got a battery pack there, then you've got a floor pan, and you've got seat rails, and you've got carpet, and there's quite a strong protective base plate on the bottom. And that all adds up, and then we want to have still good headroom in the car. But if you make the car too tall, you lose the beauty. It starts looking weird if the sedan is too tall. The length to height matters enormously in the feeling of aesthetics.
 

R.S

Active Member
Mar 8, 2015
1,196
1,004
Munich, Bavaria, Germany
While I think it would be great to see the 2170 cells in the S/X, I don’t think that is coming anytime soon.

2020 S/X’s will get the Maxwell dry electrode 18650 next which, according to them, would.

1. Improve energy density ~15% (370mi to 420mi, Elon with have a tweet for that) over current batteries (~250 Wh/kg to ~300 Wh/kg) with path to ~500 Wh/kg.
2. 10-20% cost reduction with easy integration into current production line.
3. Double Battery Life expectancy (90% after 1,500 cycles so after ~600-650k mi driven would still charge to 380mi from 420mi)

This seems like the best path to satisfying S/X shoppers and minimal CAPEX to implement. Also I’m unsure if dry electrode tech allows for higher V3 charging (Maxwell mentions improved discharge rates but I haven’t seen anything about charging ability).

There is no ‘Maxwell dry electrode’. Electrodes are usually dry. They just have an interesting process for coating electrodes without solvent. Which could save a process step in building battery cells.

It is explained much better here:
Tesla / Maxwell: It Seems Mainstream News Coverage Has Missed The Mark

In my opinion Tesla could just have bought Maxwell for their capacitors. The dry coating could be interesting for batteries as well, but only because it could make the production line a bit cheaper.

Cell chemistry will still improve as well, but probably not because of Maxwells solvent free coating.
 

Sluggabed

Member
May 3, 2014
134
68
Australia
Leads me to believe it’s absurd to think there’s 5mm extra space in the pack that wasn’t accounted for.[/QUOTE said:
So glad your not working on this.......there's more than enough room to account for this on this the S. Not only within the pack but clearance. Anyone thinking along these lines hasn't done much in design, especially people insisting the car has to be completely redesigned is laughable.
 
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ucmndd

Well-Known Member
Mar 10, 2016
6,659
12,510
California
snarky stuff

I’m simply reporting on what the company leadership stated was an obsessive engineering effort to reduce overall height in the vehicle.

But by all means, enlighten us. What are your credentials in this area? Sounds like you’re quite the expert.
 

Sluggabed

Member
May 3, 2014
134
68
Australia
I’m simply reporting on what the company leadership stated was an obsessive engineering effort to reduce overall height in the vehicle.

But by all means, enlighten us. What are your credentials in this area? Sounds like you’re quite the expert.

And also completely omitting that the dude that's designed numerous vehicles that no one on the planet can replicate, yet according to you can't figure out the dimensions of a cell to fit into an existing product. Elon would be pissing himself laughing. I'm pretty sure, it's you putting your credentials above the entire team at Tesla.
 

R.S

Active Member
Mar 8, 2015
1,196
1,004
Munich, Bavaria, Germany
And also completely omitting that the dude that's designed numerous vehicles that no one on the planet can replicate, yet according to you can't figure out the dimensions of a cell to fit into an existing product. Elon would be pissing himself laughing. I'm pretty sure, it's you putting your credentials above the entire team at Tesla.

Where are those quotes from Elon, that the 2170s will fit in the Model S pack?

Here is something the guy who really engineered the Model S said:

It's something we've of course contemplated, but it's quite a large change to the architecture of the module and the battery pack overall.
 

MorrisonHiker

S 100D 2021.4.18.2
Mar 8, 2015
9,833
9,200
Colorado
I have given up on the imminent refresh...I ordered a new S today. I test drove the "raven" update and it was a big step forward.
Since you are buying new, you should still get the "enhanced" interior changes that are coming out. Then again, maybe they only come on performance models. I haven't confirmed yet.
 
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mkspeedr

Member
Jun 14, 2015
763
819
Santa Clara, CA
Quick summary - We have had 4 S and one X - all P cars. I need a straight commute vehicle for a 60 miles round trip.

I went to the local sales center to drive a performance 3. Awesome car - nimble, small, quiet and a modern feel. 70db interior cabin noise with my phone app.

Then I drove a performance S with 19" - Quieter, larger, quicker, roomier but the ride was much better than my S or X. Driving on city streets it was noticeably quieter both in road noise and motor. On the freeway it was 65db - my 2018 X is 68. Same road same speed. Sport felt more planted in my limited corner acceleration tests.

So my performance biased opinion - the ride was quieter and better. My impression was less body movement and smoother than my pre Raven S or X. I ordered the S for my commuter. I dont need the small, nimble, easy parking car - I want larger quiet and smooth...bonus points for the 2.4 second 0-60 time.
 

ucmndd

Well-Known Member
Mar 10, 2016
6,659
12,510
California
And also completely omitting that the dude that's designed numerous vehicles that no one on the planet can replicate, yet according to you can't figure out the dimensions of a cell to fit into an existing product. Elon would be pissing himself laughing. I'm pretty sure, it's you putting your credentials above the entire team at Tesla.

I’m honestly not sure what your point is. Whatever you think you’re trying to say, it’s incoherent.
 
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T_E_S_L_A

Member
Jun 17, 2016
69
43
Virginia Beach
Quick summary - We have had 4 S and one X - all P cars. I need a straight commute vehicle for a 60 miles round trip.

I went to the local sales center to drive a performance 3. Awesome car - nimble, small, quiet and a modern feel. 70db interior cabin noise with my phone app.

Then I drove a performance S with 19" - Quieter, larger, quicker, roomier but the ride was much better than my S or X. Driving on city streets it was noticeably quieter both in road noise and motor. On the freeway it was 65db - my 2018 X is 68. Same road same speed. Sport felt more planted in my limited corner acceleration tests.

So my performance biased opinion - the ride was quieter and better. My impression was less body movement and smoother than my pre Raven S or X. I ordered the S for my commuter. I dont need the small, nimble, easy parking car - I want larger quiet and smooth...bonus points for the 2.4 second 0-60 time.
I didn’t get the Performance :(
 

Bruno-BEL

Member
Feb 20, 2016
24
6
Belgium
Hi folks,

Can you point me to any topics in theses forums that would discuss about the next Model S refresh ? I looked but didn't find what I'm looking for.
I know Elon said there is no refresh coming but persistent rumors (like here Tesla is planning a series of surprises for the second half of the year - Electrek says otherwise)

I don't want to start a Troll here but I almost finish my lease on my Model X and wonder what car to buy next (obviously it will be Tesla)

I had in mind for my next car Model 3, but I was kind of disappointed with the tryout. It's a great car but I'm missing all the space I have in the X. So I begin to think...let's go for Model S but then I should wait for the refresh.

I Bought one of the first Model X, in Belgium. And I was king of disappointed several moths later when they launched the 100 batteries with upgraded auto pilot software.

So I would like to avoid to buy a Model S now and have a major upgrade before the end of the year.

Any thoughts ? Any links ?

Thanks in advance,

Bruno.
 
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