Model S range and interior update imminent?

[wdolson]

Hmmm. The Cybertruck and the Semi are new vehicles, still in design, and without manufacturing machinery and assembly lines already committed. So I can see the feasibility of incorporating new battery cells in those. But the Model S design is set and the manufacturing lines are in use. The new cells will require new battery packs, potentially different cooling systems, and most likely different chassis architecture. I cannot see the new cells being in the Model S without a major revamp of the platform, and I doubt Tesla will do that for a low volume model like the Plaid will be. I could only picture that if tesla does a major revamp of the Model S (and possibly X?) architecture, inside and out, which sounds like a major investment. They would need to do all their testing all over -- including safety testing for all their sales markets. The Model S and X volumes are so low, it is hard to imagine that investment being prudent and worthwhile. They have not even converted S and X to the cells being used in Model 3, which would be a smaller leap (but still would be disruptive to manufacturing and would possibly require testing, I think).

Tesla has too much development on their plate -- Semi, Roadster, Cybertruck, and now the Plaid.

Frankly -- and as a Model S owner, I hate to say this -- I wonder if Models S and X have served their purpose and will not be further developed. The Plaid model is a sort of extreme stretch of the current platform. Maybe it will be the swan song...The Model S and X do not really fit with the high volume, low quality/low service model that tesla is currently operating. For continuing sales at high volumes, Models S and X require a different sort of buying/service experience, which existed before Model 3 but which is largely gone. I wonder if the pricier models are just not needed for Tesla's purpose to "accelerate the world's transition to sustainable energy..."

I'm pretty sure the Plaid tech destined for the Model S and X is probably the same as the Roadster. The Roadster prototype had two 100 KWh packs connected together. The Roadster may be designed using elements from the Model S, which makes sharing parts between the two easier.

If that is true, it makes sense to release the Model S Plaid and then the new Roadster with Plaid shortly after. Being a lighter car the Roadster will likely perform better than the S with exactly the same drive and battery hardware.

As for the Model 3 batteries in the S and X. I recall Elon saying that the S and X won't be converted to use the 2170 cells because they are unable to deliver energy to the drives fast enough to meet Performance specs in the S and X. It may be that with the larger cells made with the same build tech as the 18650s, they can't be cooled fast enough. The new batteries announced on Battery Day have a new way of building the cells that makes cooling more efficient so they can get more power out of a larger package quicker.

 

[ucmndd]

The Roadster prototype had two 100 KWh packs connected together.

I seriously doubt the prototype roadster has anything approaching 200kwh onboard. It’s certainly not two double-stacked 100kwh S/X packs. Not a chance.

 

[ICUDoc]

Not a chance.

I thought that the general consensus was that 2 stacks was EXACTLY what was powering the Roadster prototype?
What do you think it is? It was a couple of years ago so I guess the new cells almost certainly NOT in there.

 

[ucmndd]

I thought that the general consensus was that 2 stacks was EXACTLY what was powering the Roadster prototype?
What do you think it is? It was a couple of years ago so I guess the new cells almost certainly NOT in there.

I guess I missed that consensus or any hard data one way or another. Maybe it’s true? Dunno.

As I said, as a prototype, I doubt it has anywhere near 200kwh actually installed in it. I don’t think it needs it to prove the concept or show the performance potential. Particularly if you don’t give a crap about longevity/health of the cells over tens or hundreds of thousands of miles.

Double stacked packs implies something approaching 8 inches of floor depth and nearly 2500 pounds of JUST battery. That just doesn’t seem feasible in a car that size. Even as a prototype.

 

[wdolson]

I guess I missed that consensus or any hard data one way or another. Maybe it’s true? Dunno.

As I said, as a prototype, I doubt it has anywhere near 200kwh actually installed in it. I don’t think it needs it to prove the concept or show the performance potential. Particularly if you don’t give a crap about longevity/health of the cells over tens or hundreds of thousands of miles.

Double stacked packs implies something approaching 8 inches of floor depth and nearly 2500 pounds of JUST battery. That just doesn’t seem feasible in a car that size. Even as a prototype.

According to this thread
200 kWh Roadster Pack: How is Tesla Pulling This Off?

People who sat in the Roadster at the reveal did say the floor of the car was high enough for two packs stacked on top of one another.

 

[Tiger]

5. Will allow Tesla to design the X to be a better competitor in the high end CUV/SUV segment. Bye bye Falcon wing doors.

Hmm.. aren't the falcon wing door issues already resolved, so why get rid of them? They are very practical when using child seat etc.

 

[ucmndd]

Hmm.. aren't the falcon wing door issues already resolved, so why get rid of them? They are very practical when using child seat etc.

I’d love to own an X but it’s a hard pass from me with those gawdy attention whore doors. Different strokes I guess.

 

[Tiger]

I’d love to own an X but it’s a hard pass from me with those gawdy attention whore doors. Different strokes I guess.

I used to wear tight pants in the 80's, the attention wears out quite quickly. Probably a week and you forget what people are staring at. Just makes you stronger.

 

[henderrj]

What sort of shop? Do you mean an exclusive S/X factory line? Or do you mean an exclusive service facility? I had not heard of it, either way, so please elaborate.

Sorry for the late reply, I just noticed this.

I thought I read that here on these forums, but it may have been electrek or Teslarati. Not sure where I saw it. I do think it was only because the combined shops were overwhelmed and they just simply divided the work out by model. So it may have nothing to do with my hope!

 

[JPoldo]

Will they announce any major improvement to model S before Plaid delivery late 2021? What is calculated speculation?

 

[brkaus]

Will they announce any major improvement to model S before Plaid delivery late 2021? What is calculated speculation?

No. They will trickle down from the highest priced models slowly over time.

 

[MJP.P3D-]

What is calculated speculation?

Calculated: nada
Speculation: rampant

 

[wdolson]

Will they announce any major improvement to model S before Plaid delivery late 2021? What is calculated speculation?

In the past when something has come along that improves performance, it has appeared in the Performance cars first than then when production of the new tech ramps up, they expand it to the regular cars. Though the only improvement to the S/X since the Model 3 came out was the Raven upgrade and that was rolled out to all S/X at once.

I doubt they will roll out anything related to performance upgrades to the non-Performance cars before the P cars get it, though they might roll out a number of improvements at the same time. the S/X has become something of a backwater at Tesla. Production numbers have dropped in recent years and some of the tech is behind their cheaper siblings. I think the Plaid upgrade is only coming along to keep Tesla in the bragging rights for performance compared to new rivals. When the new Roadster becomes available the Model S Performance will no longer be able to compete with their own stablemate.

I would not be surprised if Tesla discontinued the S and X at some point. They could make a lot more money switching over the S and X line to make other cars with more demand. I like the instrument layout of the S/X better and the free supercharging on older cars is a plus on roadtrips, but if I had to replace my S tomorrow, I would get a Model Y.

 

[henderrj]

For years I bought and wore Dockers briefs and t-shirts. I know, sounds mundane. In fact so mundane, and worth so little money, that Dockers discontinued them. Now they pay millions upon millions to get their 16 "exposures". That is to say, they try to have people see their name 16 times before they go to the clothing store next time. That way they might buy their product. Funny thing, I was seeing their name quite a few times every single day. Now I don't get that anymore.

The point is that Tesla gets a lot of exposure from the S and especially the X. I don't see them discontinuing the X, probably not the S either. There may not be a lot of money in it, but there's a lot of exposure in them.

Besides, you have to have something to aspire to. If the 3 and the Roadster are their top of the line cars, what is there to aspire to for most people? It's the reason Mercedes keeps updating the S class.

 

[wdolson]

The S isn't the halo car anymore. People complain the interior is looking dated, it doesn't use the 2170 batteries, and the design was released 8 years ago.

The world is even more into SUVs now than they were in 2012 and the X is a bit weird, which probably keeps down sales. People who don't want to draw a lot of attention don't want a big flag going up to everyone in the parking lot that they have an X every time they open the back doors. The S has the advantage of looking a lot like many other contemporary sedans, but sedans as a class are a dying breed.

The only claim to fame that the S has over other cars in the line up is that it is the top performance car. However, that will be dwarfed by the Roadster when it enters production. The Tesla vehicle all my neighbors want is the Cybertruck. That's what they're aspiring to.

In a year or two the two biggest vehicles in the Tesla lineup will be the Model Y and the Cybertruck with the Roadster as the halo car people want for having fun.

Even though my S is an AP1 early refresh, I do love the car and I hope to keep driving it for some time to come. But I'm also a realist and I know I'm kind of a weirdo. I bought a Buick Roadmaster new when I was 26 and drove it was my only car for 24 years. I caught a lot of flak for driving a grampa car, but I liked it. The later ones had a Corvette engine, but mine had a Chevy truck engine, so it wasn't even the cool Roadmaster.

The Model S is a classic car that will go down in history as the first EV to break out of the EV ghetto and sell well among non-eco crowd. I think it was Motor Trend that awarded the Model S the #1 car of the year for the entire history of the magazine. But breakthrough cars have a time and place. The Model T was a breakthrough in 1914, but nobody would drive one as a daily driver today.

With a thorough redesign to incorporate all the latest manufacturing and technical advancements along with a premium interior, a new S might recapture some of it's former glory and become a car to aspire to again, but right now it's a niche car with a limited market. Elon said they only keep building the Model S and X out of nostalgia. That will probably continue for a while. The company's energies are going into newer designs.

 

[FlatSix911]

The S isn't the halo car anymore. People complain the interior is looking dated, it doesn't use the 2170 batteries, and the design was released 8 years ago.

The world is even more into SUVs now than they were in 2012 and the X is a bit weird, which probably keeps down sales. People who don't want to draw a lot of attention don't want a big flag going up to everyone in the parking lot that they have an X every time they open the back doors. The S has the advantage of looking a lot like many other contemporary sedans, but sedans as a class are a dying breed.

The only claim to fame that the S has over other cars in the line up is that it is the top performance car. However, that will be dwarfed by the Roadster when it enters production. The Tesla vehicle all my neighbors want is the Cybertruck. That's what they're aspiring to.

In a year or two the two biggest vehicles in the Tesla lineup will be the Model Y and the Cybertruck with the Roadster as the halo car people want for having fun.

Even though my S is an AP1 early refresh, I do love the car and I hope to keep driving it for some time to come. But I'm also a realist and I know I'm kind of a weirdo. I bought a Buick Roadmaster new when I was 26 and drove it was my only car for 24 years. I caught a lot of flak for driving a grampa car, but I liked it. The later ones had a Corvette engine, but mine had a Chevy truck engine, so it wasn't even the cool Roadmaster.

The Model S is a classic car that will go down in history as the first EV to break out of the EV ghetto and sell well among non-eco crowd. I think it was Motor Trend that awarded the Model S the #1 car of the year for the entire history of the magazine. But breakthrough cars have a time and place. The Model T was a breakthrough in 1914, but nobody would drive one as a daily driver today.

With a thorough redesign to incorporate all the latest manufacturing and technical advancements along with a premium interior, a new S might recapture some of it's former glory and become a car to aspire to again, but right now it's a niche car with a limited market. Elon said they only keep building the Model S and X out of nostalgia. That will probably continue for a while. The company's energies are going into newer designs.

Good analysis of the Model S... but you lost me when you mentioned the Roadmaster.

 

[wdolson]

Good analysis of the Model S... but you lost me when you mentioned the Roadmaster.

Like I said, I'm a weirdo...

Interestingly the Roadmaster had almost exactly the same wheelbase and width as the Model S. I've done little more to a car than change the oil and replace the stereo, but I thought it would be interesting to put a Roadmaster body on top of a Model S skateboard. One thing I miss about the Roadmaster is the seats. Ultra comfortable.

 

[David_Cary]

Agree with SUV comments above and how the X is a bit weird for some. They really should have a large SUV that appeals to vanilla tastes. I know someone who just bought a loaded X7. Probably didn't consider the X because of the doors but paid more for less room, performance and handling. But they got a lot of buttons - and some nice seats.

 

[Riburn3]

I just can't see a situation where the Plaid and other S trims don't come with a significant update inside and out.

The roadster will not come close to replacing the S when it's price-point launches it into super/hypercar territory, while the Model S remains at a price-point of similarly sized luxury sedans.

The Taycan, which is more expensive and not as great a performer outside the tippity top 200k trim has shown there remains a stable diet of folks wanting high performance cars that still offer more practicality. Read several Taycan forums and find a whose who of current and former Tesla owners that crossed over because they were tired of waiting for a Model S refresh, and wanted improved fit and finish from this decade.

Elon won't be abandoning the segment to the likes of Porsche, BMW, Lucid, and Mercedes when he is so competitive and it's just now starting to take off. Before, he didn't have to tend to the Model S because there wasn't really anything out there close to it. Now there are and clearly he is paying attention.

 

[Grassright]

Agree with SUV comments above and how the X is a bit weird for some. They really should have a large SUV that appeals to vanilla tastes. I know someone who just bought a loaded X7. Probably didn't consider the X because of the doors but paid more for less room, performance and handling. But they got a lot of buttons - and some nice seats.

I am also waiting for X refresh while seriously consider buying an X7 if there is no refresh. X7 M50 provides similar performance with V8 engine while having much better room and build quality.