Model S regen

[NigelM]

Just to provoke some discussion, so don't take this the wrong way Dr C:

This is what is holding me back from placing a reservation for this car now. I'd love to go all electric and replace the Lexus with the Model S. But so far it looks like a significant step down in terms of features and luxury....

Translated: I'd love to save the world, but not if I have to give up my comfy seat.....

 

[DrComputer]

Just to provoke some discussion, so don't take this the wrong way Dr C:

Translated: I'd love to save the world, but not if I have to give up my comfy seat.....

Aww... now I'm offended...well, not really. All I'm saying is that I want to save the world AND have my comfy seats. I love technology (hence the screen name) but I don't want to buy something new that is already old when I buy it. I don't see why at the price point being quoted for the Signature Edition S ($90K) that they can't have at least the same features that are already available on mainstream luxury cars. For $90K I can get a nice new Lexus LS460L with every imaginable creature comfort feature. I just want the S to be similar if not better. I know this is a tall order to ask, but Elon has said many times that he wants the Model S, and all Tesla's for that matter, to be BETTER than their gas counterparts. I just want him to keep up his part of the bargain.

 

[gg_got_a_tesla]

It may not be a fair comparison on a lot of fronts. On the price front, Tesla needs to eke out a decent margin (weren't they targeting 25%?) on the Model S to sustain their growth and expansion plans; given how costly the battery pack itself is, it's hard for Tesla to maintain the current price tiers while pouring in more money - R&D, parts, manufacturing etc. - into additional "froth" (in my personal opinion) that's not strictly a must for 90+% of the target audience.

The Lexus LS is what it is: designed for ultra luxury, convenience (seriously, auto-parallel-parking?!) and comfort in every which way. Tesla can aspire to some of the very same goals but, these goals are not the be-all and end-all for Tesla. Lexus has always excelled at such and they have the breadth of fleet and price leeway (courtesy not just Lexus sales but, ostensibly Toyota's as well) to do pretty much whatever they want to.

On a different note, looks-wise, it's a no-contest, I'd think. The Tesla wins hands down! The Lexus LS looks like a big land yacht to me!

 

[WhiteKnight]

I don't see why at the price point being quoted for the Signature Edition S ($90K) that they can't have at least the same features that are already available on mainstream luxury cars.

I agree with Dr. Computer that you should buy the Model S because you think it is the best car (has the best performance, features, etc).

Model S does NOT have: dynamic laser cruise control, land departure warning, etc like the Lexus. It ALSO does NOT have: night vision, heads up display, etc like the BMW 5-series.

And Lexus and BMW do NOT have: an all electric vehicle that is super-quiet, has amazing handling, can maintain your car's temperature even when the engine is not running, a 17 inch touchscreen, a panoramic roof, a frunk, rear facing seats, 5 star crash ratings in every category, zero gas, lower maintenance, etc.

So it just boils down to what features do you like the best? And if you don't like the features of the Model S compared to other cars then you should buy the other car.

I personally have never bought a car in this price range before and even though I've got a reservation I intend to test drive and shop the competitors before I buy just to make sure. If it turns out I like them better then I'll buy one of them.

 

[SByer]

Man, the Roadster vs. 911 comparison is (was?) soooo much easier! :biggrin:

 

[gg_got_a_tesla]

I personally have never bought a car in this price range before and even though I've got a reservation I intend to test drive and shop the competitors before I buy just to make sure. If it turns out I like them better then I'll buy one of them.

I seriously doubt you'd end up doing that, WhiteKnight - I suspect you are too emotionally invested in the Model S to 'settle' for a run-of-the-mill, albeit ultra-luxurious, gasser :wink:

Okay, we've gone way OT here; now back to the scheduled programming (what was it? Regen?) :smile:

 

[WhiteKnight]

I seriously doubt you'd end up doing that, WhiteKnight - I suspect you are too emotionally invested in the Model S to 'settle' for a run-of-the-mill, albeit ultra-luxurious, gasser :wink:

Yeah, you're probably right! :biggrin: I don't spend way too much time on any other automakers' fan club website!!

 

[Robert.Boston]

There's also a "role of the driver" question here. Many of the gizmos being layered onto super-high-end cars today insulate the driver from the act of driving -- "lane assist" is a good example; "auto parallel park" is the most egregious. Some could argue that these features augment the driver's skills; my view is that they allow them to atrophy. It's my job to know if something is in my blind spot, because I've been situationally aware of where all the cars around me are, their vectors, etc. I admit to using cruise control, which is a step down this line; my wife never does. We like being in control of the car. So I'm fine with Tesla (apparently) not prioritizing getting lane assist, adaptive cruise control, etc. etc. piled on the car. Their focus should be on making a great car for drivers.

 

[Todd Burch]

Model S does NOT have: dynamic laser cruise control, land departure warning, etc like the Lexus.

I would be extremely concerned if the land departure warning went off in either a Lexus OR a Tesla

 

[JRP3]

I know this is a tall order to ask, but Elon has said many times that he wants the Model S, and all Tesla's for that matter, to be BETTER than their gas counterparts. I just want him to keep up his part of the bargain.

It all depends on what features are important. If smooth, quiet, electric only driving is important then ONLY the Model S offers that, which makes it BETTER than your Lexus. If you want an electric version of the Lexus you'd have to be prepared to pay even more. Driving the price of the S up even further with gadgets that most people probably don't care about doesn't seem like a good business plan for Tesla at this point in time.

 

[dsm363]

This thread is getting a little off topic but I'd rather have Tesla deliver the Model S with no flaws the way it is than to try and cram a bunch of features in there that they don't implement well. I'm sure they'll have time with future model years of the Model S to add laser cruise control...etc

 

[Doug_G]

There's also a "role of the driver" question here. Many of the gizmos being layered onto super-high-end cars today insulate the driver from the act of driving

This is a significant problem for pilots operating in today's modern, highly automated glass cockpits. They don't spend much time actually flying the plane.

 

[gg_got_a_tesla]

To segue back on topic, providing driver-adjustable Regen would play to and emphasize the Model S's strengths. I think Tesla ought to provide that capability to drivers who are interested in tweaking it while providing a 'default' for others who may not be fussy about it.

 

[vfx]

Phantom Traffic Jams

I contend that the mere presence of regen brake lights wil accelerate this human reaction.

http://news.sciencemag.org/sciencenow/2008/03/28-01.html

Videos here: http://iopscience.iop.org/1367-2630/10/3/033001/media

Tesla should hire the university to determine when regen brake lights should come on if at all. Just a light glow or amber color from the center light might stop phantom slowdowns.

 

[NigelM]

Phantom Traffic Jams

I contend that the mere presence of regen brake lights wil accelerate this human reaction.

http://news.sciencemag.org/sciencenow/2008/03/28-01.html

Videos here: http://iopscience.iop.org/1367-2630/10/3/033001/media

Tesla should hire the university to determine when regen brake lights should come on if at all. Just a light glow or amber color from the center light might stop phantom slowdowns.

If traffic jams happen without regen brake lights, why would that be an argument to contend that we shouldn't have regen brake lights?

The whole world knows that seeing red brake lights mean that the vehicle in front is slowing down. Honestly, for any car bigger than my Roadster (which is most of them!) I WANT them to know I'm slowing down; I don't want them thinking "what's that funny amber light mean?" right before they plow into the back of me.

 

[JRP3]

If traffic jams happen without regen brake lights, why would that be an argument to contend that we shouldn't have regen brake lights?

The whole world knows that seeing red brake lights mean that the vehicle in front is slowing down. Honestly, for any car bigger than my Roadster (which is most of them!) I WANT them to know I'm slowing down; I don't want them thinking "what's that funny amber light mean?" right before they plow into the back of me.

Correct on all points.

 

[vfx]

If traffic jams happen without regen brake lights, why would that be an argument to contend that we shouldn't have regen brake lights?

Because it will cause more traffic jams than now.

These phantom traffic jams happen because people (for whatever reason) a single car slows down. Then the car behind them slows to match (often overcompensating) this is followed by the slowing of the car behind that 2nd car and then the third and so on.

If that first car is signaling to the 2nd that they are slowing down but are actually not slowing down that much the 2nd car has no choice but to assume the first car is slowing that maximum amount and brake thus starting the chin reaction for no good reason.

What's needed then is a graduated way to tell the 2nd car the amount of braking the first car is doing. My suggestion of gradually brighten brake lights or color changing amber to red or just amber on regen (which is far from full braking) is a solution to unneeded traffic jams behind EVs. Adding a new rear light scheme seemed to go Ok when the third light was added.

I shutter to think of the scale when a freeway if full of only slightly slowing EVs with brake lights all on. It will be gridlock. A quiet one though...

 

[NigelM]

These phantom traffic jams happen because people (for whatever reason) a single car slows down. Then the car behind them slows to match (often overcompensating) this is followed by the slowing of the car behind that 2nd car and then the third and so on.

If that first car is signaling to the 2nd that they are slowing down but are actually not slowing down that much the 2nd car has no choice but to assume the first car is slowing that maximum amount and brake thus starting the chin reaction for no good reason.

If I buy that, then there is always a car in front that is braking for no reason. That's gonna happen with or without EV's. Or is everyone suddenly going to become a better driver when there are more than a few EV's on the road? And if there is something up ahead causing cars to slow I want my regen brake lights to come on so the driver behind knows it also.

I'm just not buying that I won't get rear-ended before the world has learned what a different light pattern means. There's a whole thread over here about the dangers of not having amber turn signals, and that's a minor change compared to introducing a whole new light pattern.

...a freeway full of only slightly slowing EVs...

In our lifetime? I hope so, but doubt it.

P.S. Wait! If I'm the one causing a traffic jam, then I'm in front of it and I can just zoom away in any case! :biggrin:

 

[vfx]

... Wait! If I'm the one causing a traffic jam, then I'm in front of it and I can just zoom away in any case! :biggrin:

No it's your spouse in the other EV up ahead!

 

[neroden]

From a purely driver-oriented view, I applaud Tesla's decision to make the brake pedal exclusively linked to the mechanical brake. That puppy needs to work consistently and reliably for my safety. The more bells-and-whistles you add into its operation, the less comfortable I feel with its reliability.

Tesla's been making a lot of "clean and simple" design choices. This simplifies manufacturing, quality assurance, and maintenance, while improving reliability and safety in the case of a parts failure. I absolutely and unequivocally approve of such choices. The modern Lexus-type cars are often designed so that *everything*, including all safety-critical systems, involves *lots* of electronics and is tied into the same computer, and I don't like that one bit. Tesla appears to be taking the "fully modular" approach with all the critical systems, while stuffing the *non*-critical systems into one computer touchscreen.

So, based on this design philosophy of keeping different subsystems independent, I believe tying the regen to the accelerator as "engine braking" and making the brake pedal purely hydraulic is absolutely the way to go. I am curious about what they're doing with the "emergency brake" -- it sounds like it will *not* fulfill the original handbrake function of being a purely mechanical braking system, but I can live with that (most handbrakes aren't worth much these days anyway).

From what I'm reading, Tesla plans to have maximum regen on the accelerator... but that simply won't do as much on the 4000 lb. Model S as it does on the Roadster. Which is fine with me. I'd hate to see artificial limitations on regen.