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Model S spec - Dual chargers in the UK?

Discussion in 'Model S: Battery & Charging' started by VintageMark, Jan 27, 2014.

  1. VintageMark

    VintageMark Member

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    Hi,

    First post, apologies for the lack of knowledge!

    My Model S order is currently being processed here in the UK... I've gone for a P85, Tech Pack, Parking sensors, leather seats and security pack.

    I am however confused about the second charger option, the Tesla rep suggested it had minimal value, however I have read a couple of posts here on the forums suggesting it might even be of value at home, is anyone able to provide any advice?

    I have Chargemaster fitting a Type 2 32A charger at my house in the next week or so, will single vs dual chargers make a difference at home on a 240V, 32A Type 2 charger?

    Not exactly related, but for the electrically curious my wife has a BMW i3 on order as well, the house feed is 100A, and we are having 2 x Type 2 chargers fitted at home, I believe Chargemaster's plan is to install a small sub board off the main feed into the house and run a cable/cables to the two chargers from the sub board.

    I'm told the lead time on the MS is about 6-7 months... although I suspect that will slip (it has constantly in the UK, why we never changed to LHD I'll never know... ;) )...

    And to say I cannot wait to get the car... well that would be putting it mildly... :)

    Mark.
     
  2. Chipper

    Chipper Active Member

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    I am excited for you Mark, and for your wife too! I cannot answer your questions but I wanted to offer a welcome nonetheless! There will be others on here within a few hours and you will probably get more answers than you would need or even want. This is a great place to get all your questions answered!
     
  3. spentan

    spentan Active Member

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    I don't think Dual Chargers helps under 40A (at 240V). (~10kW)

    As soon as you start getting to the HPWC, which is 80A at 240V (~20kW), thats when you'll see a difference.
     
  4. necho

    necho Member

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    Hi Mark ... congrats

    type 2 is the connector type, the plug, so it has nothing directly to do with the power supply. you can use up to three lines with a type 2 connector (as far as I know) and here in Switzerland as also in other European countries you can have three power lines (phases), each with 230V and 32A in a synced order.

    One charger in the Tesla allows max. charge power of 11kW ... and a dual charger 22kW.

    So if you get 3 lines (phases) in your 230V wall-box with each 32A then you can get 3 x 230V x 32A = 22'080W ~22kW and you would take full advantage of the available power with a dual charger. If you only get 1 line (phase) then obviously you will have maximum 1 x 230V x 32A = 7360W ~7.3kW so single charger is enough (I think thats what the BMW i3 is being charged). You should clarify if you have 3 phases or 1 in your wall-outlet ... or if you can get 3 phases.
     
  5. VintageMark

    VintageMark Member

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    Many thanks for the welcome and quick replies!

    I'm pretty sure domestic UK household supplies are single phase... so it sounds as though the dual chargers wont be particular beneficial at home at least..

    Would I be correct in thinking that when taking a road trip at the moment my *fast* charging options are limited to:

    Superchargers (not many in the UK at the moment)
    CHAdeMO (with adapter when they are available)
    Possibly SAE CCS in future? (I don't believe MS supports this today, I understand this is also limited in the YK but Ecotricity are adding SAE CCS to all CHAdeMO points at UK service stations)

    Leaving 'standard' charging at some locations up to a max of 11kw?

    Thanks again...
     
  6. arg

    arg Member

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    #6 arg, Jan 28, 2014
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2014
    It's a real head-scratcher whether to get the dual chargers; the cost of getting it upgraded later is huge (at least if UK pricing tracks the US), and whether or not you will actually get any benefit out of it depends on factors that it's almost impossible to know - how you will use the car (will your driving patterns remain the same for the whole time you have the car? I don't think mine will...), and what the installed base of public charging stations looks like in the particular places you happen to want to visit.

    I eventually decided to go with the dual chargers, though there's a strong argument for just taking the single charger and using the cash to buy the CHAdeMO adapter instead, when it eventually appears.

    To actually take advantage of dual chargers, you need both an EVSE (charge point) that can supply more current than the single-charger car can consume, and a driving pattern where the faster charge actually makes a difference to what you can do. If the EVSE can't supply the power, then the dual charger car will charge at exactly the same speed as the single charger car; and if for example you are planning to leave at 7AM, it doesn't really help that the car is ready to go at 3AM rather than 6:30.


    For most people, the dual chargers is much more about charging on trips than charging at home. Few UK homes have more than 100A single phase coming in from the street, so will struggle to provide even the 43A that is the max a single charger Model S can consume - and you probably don't need it anyhow. With 32A charging (7.3kW), it takes less than 12 hours to charge from absolute dead empty to absolute full range charge, so the car can probably fully charge overnight anyhow. With a less common EVSE configuration you could push the single-charger car to 11kW and so charge in under 8 hours. However, the need can arise depending on your lifestyle - I have been analysing my (ICE) driving over the past year or so to see how it would work out driving the Tesla, and I have had exactly one occasion where the ability to use dual chargers at home would have been important: I had a day when I was leaving on a family holiday to Devon in the afternoon, and I suddenly had a business meeting in Northampton in the morning; after that 100-mile round trip in the morning I would have needed to refill 30kWh to get back to the range charge needed for the trip to Devon - 4 hours on a 32A EVSE, 3 hours at single-charger max, or 1.5hours at dual charger max. On that actual day, I had about 2 hours available...

    More plausible for using dual chargers might be charging at work - most commercial/industrial premises have 3-phase supply, and finding a spare 32A of 3-phase capacity at an office/industrial site is much more likely than finding 96A of single-phase at home. And the scenario of coming in from somewhere, spending a couple of hours in the office and then heading out somewhere else seems more likely than similar timing at home.

    Out on the road it's a different matter. Single charger means a maximum of 30 miles range added in an hour of charging; dual charger can get up to 60 miles of range per hour of charging (assuming 300Wh/mile). If you are in a service area sitting waiting for the charge needed to get to your destination, that would be a huge difference. And there do seem to be a moderate number of public charge points where 22kW is available (and unlike the USA, it's not just the Teslas that want high current AC - Renault are favouring even higher current AC). On the other hand, many of the existing high-current public charge locations in the UK also have CHAdeMO at the same location - twice as fast again, so the CHAdeMO adatper makes much more sense if you believe this pattern of deployments is going to continue in the future. But then again, these sites often have only one CHAdeMO; what if the CHAdeMO is out-of-order or already in use? Having the dual charger means the backup option only takes twice as long, rather than 4 times.


    So in summary, the dual chargers make sense if any of:
    • You have a charging location at home/work with more than 10kW of spare power available and have a driving pattern where you often drive more than 200 miles in a day
    • You believe there are likely to be public charging locations in places you will want to travel to (maybe abroad?) that have high current AC but not CHAdeMO and you actually make trips where you drive more than 200 miles in a day.
    • You believe the Tesla CHAdeMO adapter could be a long time coming and/or you don't trust the reliability of publc CHAdeMO locations.



    It shouldn't do: [email protected] = 7.36kW, so within the rating of the single charger.

    However, I have seen a rumour (on one of the threads on here about charging in Norway) that implies the single charger car, though capable of 10kW, can't take more than 3.7kW through a conventionally-wired type-2 single phase connector. I have no idea if this rumour is true (see below), but if it were true the dual charger car would be better off when connected this way. However, a different configuration of the EVSE would solve the problem even if this is true.

    Sounds reasonable. But with two 32A chargers and only 100A into the house you are pushing things already and certainly don't have the capacity to go up to 62A or 96A for the Model S (that you'd need to take full advantage of the dual chargers). What's really needed for this (likely extremely common) situation is an intelligent EVSE that can offer more power to one car when other loads in the house/2nd car are not on, and reduce it when demand goes up. I'm sorely tempted to build my own, not having seen such a piece of kit available commercially yet.

    Technical info

    The exact spec of the UK/Europe cars doesn't seem to be entirely clear. The best I have been able to understand from reading here and Tesla's announcements etc. is:
    • The single-charger car has a maximum total rating of 11kW, dual charger at 22kW.
    • The input to the car is configured for three-phase, but with effectively 3 separate chargers, one for each phase, drawing between phase and neutral. There are reports that the car won't charge in the absence of a neutral connection (even though the load should be balanced and so no current flowing in the neutral). So it has 3 inputs at 16A (single charger) or 32A (dual) each.
    • The car can therefore straightforwardly charge from 16A single phase (32A dual charger) without anything special happening - this is just the 3-phase setup where two phases happen to be switched off.
    • The car is specified to be able charge from more than 16A single-phase (40A single/80A dual according to the Tesla website). To do this requires that the chargers are connected in parallel - ie. 2 or more of the onboard chargers are connected to the same phase. What is not clear is the mechanism(s) available for this reconfiguration.
    • The UMC (supplied with the car) is internally a 3-phase device, but has an adaptor for 32A single phase (blue 'commando' socket), and this works with single charger cars. I believe, but don't know for certain, that the blue adaptor parallels this input to all three of the phase inputs to the UMC and so to the car.
    • It is less clear what happens you are using a standard IEC62196-2 EVSE. Normal wiring of single phase to a type2 socket just uses the L1 pin (and the standard sockets can be rated for up to 64A per phase, though common cables are up to 32A only). If the car does nothing special, it would be limited to 16A (single), 32A (dual). For a 32A standard EVSE to be useful, the car would have a set of contactors to disconnect the charger normally connected to the L2 pin and connect it in parallel on the L1 pin instead. Ideally, the car would also allow the L3 charger to connect to the L1 pin in the same way, for up to 96A input in the dual charger case.
    • The reports from Norway suggest that the car certainly doesn't have the full switching capability that it would ideally have. Possibly it has the limited switching capability for single charger cars to draw 32A from a single phase input. Possibly it has no switching capability at all - in which case single charger cars would be limited to 16A single phase from a standard single-phase EVSE.
    • If the car is indeed limited in this way, all is not lost: when wanting to install an EVSE with a high current single phase supply available, you can simply buy a 3-phase EVSE and wire the one phase that you have to all three phase inputs (and set the current rating to 1/3 of the actual supply accordingly, so if you have 32A single-phase available, you would configure the EVSE for 10A three-phase. This is what people in Norway have reputedly been doing.
     
  7. arg

    arg Member

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    #7 arg, Jan 28, 2014
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2014
    Most houses are indeed single phase. Exceptions are very large houses, or houses where a large amount of night storage heating is/was installed.

    However, most blocks of flats (other than tiny ones) do have 3-phase.

    There is reason to believe that the cars do already support this today, as the Supercharger protocol is believed to be simply the SAE protocol . Conceivably Telsa might have deliberately or accidentally crippled their implementation so that it won't interwork with chargers other than their own.

    Unfortunately, although Tesla's plug on the European cars is mechanically interchangeable with the type2 (Mennekes) connectors, which is one of the standard options for DC charging, the proposed installations seem likely to use the larger plug which is not mechanically compatible (even though the likely power rating is within the capacity of the standard plug!). It remains to be seen how this plays out. If there are more Teslas sold than BMWs, maybe the charging sites will be inclined to fit the smaller connector.

    11kW locations appear rare. 32A single phase (=7.36kW), 32A three-phase (22kW) and 63A three phase (42kW) seem the common high-power configurations in the wild (the last of these targeted at Renaults).

    As mentioned above, there is a slight question mark over what the single-charger car will do at the 7.36kW (32A single-phase) locations. At the higher power locations, single charger cars will be limited to 11kW, dual charger to 22kW.
     
  8. widodh

    widodh Model S R231 EU

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    I wouldn't hope for a Single charger being able to do 1x32A, I think you need a Dual Charger.

    But don't forget the Ecotricity network in the UK, that has multiple 3x32A (22kW) sites, I'm going to use that.

    I have a trip planned through the UK using this network in the beginning of March (going to Wales from Dover).

    I would love to test the Single Phase capability of my Model S, so anywhere I can test? I have a S85 with the Twin Charger option.

    I'm sure it does 1x32A, anybody out there with a 1x60A Type 2 socket?
     
  9. VintageMark

    VintageMark Member

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    Hi Arg,

    Great information, just about as comprehensive as I can imagine, thank you very much for all of that.

    Decisions, decisions!

    - - - Updated - - -

    I've just changed my order to twin chargers based on all the feedback... would rather cover my bases!

    I didn't know about the Ecotricity 22kW sites... thanks for the info Widodh..
     
  10. arg

    arg Member

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    I don't know of any 1x60A, though another way to make the test would be with a single-phase type2-type2 cable against one of those 43kW (3x63A) public charge points.

    Although that test would be interesting, the one case that's really important with the current installed base is single-charger cars on a 1x32A socket.

    Do you have the blue adaptor with your UMC? It would be interesting to confirm that it shorts the L1/L2/L3 together on the UMC side.
     
  11. widodh

    widodh Model S R231 EU

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    Yes, they have a very large network. Check out their website: Our Electric Highway - For The Road - Ecotricity

    Nope :( I've been asking about it ever since I ordered the adapter with the car (September 2013) and I haven't got it yet.

    Last time I asked was last week and they said: Soon. We know that in Tesla-time that means 2015.

    So I only have the 13A Schuko adapter and the Red 3-phase 16A (11kW) adapter.
     
  12. fredag

    fredag Member

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    Single phase or three phase? Do you get three-phase power to your homes in the UK?

    If you have 32A 3-phase, you can enjoy the full 22kW speed from your charging station.

    If you have 32A 1-phase, then you will probably not be able to draw more than 16A / 3kW with a single charger car. (Since each phase on the charging cable can suck only 16A each.) Depends on the configuration of your charging station, though. (One Norwegian charging stations provider offers customers to rewire the charging station slightly, so that single charger Model S is able to draw 2 x 16A from one 32A single phase circuit.)

    Do you plan to charge outside your house at all? If so, you should get the dual charger. Unlike in the US, 22kW charging stations are quite common in Europe, and you really don't want to wait for charging longer than necessary when on a trip. Actually, I'd recommend that dual charger should be the default configuration, and only people who are absolutely sure they don't need the dual charger should be allowed to order anything less.

    An alternative could be to get the Chademo adapter instead, but I'd opt for both the dual charger and the chademo adapter.
     
  13. amitb00

    amitb00 Member

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    I also changed my order to have dual charger without HPWC. I thought that sometime in the wild it may come handy. I can use it to charge at Tesla service centers. Let us see if I reay use it.
     
  14. VintageMark

    VintageMark Member

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    Does anyone have the 'Norway' rewire on paper?

    With Chargemaster fitting my home charging connectors this weekend I am thinking I should show them some paperwork if the only way to get 32A is with a rewire.

    Thanks
     
  15. jkirkebo

    jkirkebo Model S P85+ VIN 14420 EU

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    Not on paper, only in my head ;)

    The rewire is done in the EVSE. THere is a cable going from the contactor to the L1 terminal on the Type 2 socket in the EVSE. This wire also need to be connected to the L2 terminal and preferably also to L3. This will feed the single phase to all the three sub-chargers in parallell.

    If your EVSE has a fixed cable this is harder as a fixed single phase EVSE most likely has a single phase cable. Thus this connection needs to be done inside the Type 2 connector.
     
  16. arg

    arg Member

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    Note that this needs to be combined with turning down the pilot setting to 1/2 or 1/3 current rating as applicable. Just connecting together the 3 outputs and doing nothing else tells the car it can draw 3 times as much power as is actually available. Doing it inside the cable sounds potentially hazardous - it's OK so far as it goes if the cable is captive and the current ratings are set appropriately, but leaves a very non-standard setup that may confuse people modifying the installation at a later date unless it is carefully documented.

    To make it sound less like a hack, you can say that you want a 3-phase EVSE, with all 3 phase inputs fed from the single phase supply; the current rating on the EVSE is the rating per phase, so obviously 1/3 of the total rating in this configuration. Mind you, I've no idea if Chargemaster offer 3-phase EVSEs on the cheap scheme.

    Another issue is that this setup might not suit your BMWi3. I don't have any detailed info about their on-board charger, but it sounds like it is single-phase 32A (7.36kW). So it would only charge at 10A from your pseudo-3-phase EVSE.

    Maybe better to have Chargemaster fit one vanilla 32A single phase EVSE, and simply a blue 'commando' socket for the second car, to which you can then connect the Tesla UMC that comes with the car.

    Or if you have decided to specify dual chargers after all, you can just forget the issue.
     
  17. martinwinlow

    martinwinlow Member

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    Hi Widodh,

    If you are anticipating using the ecotricity Chademos along the M4, be careful as several are rather prone to going 'off line' - with my Peugeot-badged i-Miev I was getting ground faults and CAN receiving errors - mostly at Leigh Delamere and Reading W/bound. Both have been off line now for over a week. Bridgwater for 4 weeks but too far south to be an issue for you. With the M4 ones, it is possible in both the above cases to get around to the other side of the motorway via the back roads - but not always easily. If you have a look at the comments on openchargemap.org you will see what I mean. Good luck! MW
     
  18. charliestyr

    charliestyr EVangelist

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    The chademo/43kw AC chargers do seem somewhat unreliable. Although perhaps better of late. You can follow Ecotricity on their charger specific account here:

    Electric Highway (ElecHighway) on Twitter

    They update any faults or when chargers are back online.
     
  19. arg

    arg Member

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    Any idea if these problems you are seeing with the CHAdeMO also cause the AC side to go offline? It sounds like the errors you were seeing are CHAdeMO-specific, but at the sites where the CHAdeMO and the AC are in the same unit, I wonder if faults on one side kill the other side too.
     
  20. jkirkebo

    jkirkebo Model S P85+ VIN 14420 EU

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    No. The car senses that the input is three single phase inputs instead of a three phase input and adjusts current draw accordingly. If you turn down the pilot from 32A to 10A you'll only get 10A in total, 3.33A drawn from each input.

    The blue single phase 32A UMC-adapter combines these three inputs internally and signals 32A available.
     

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