Model S to the Nürburgring Next Week!

[PhantomX]

Well as someone with a physics degree I am just going to say centripetal; not centrifugal. But yes; more mass = more resistant to change direction and more resistant to slow down: more braking force needed to reduce speed.

Inertia wants to keep doing what it is doing. (Thank you Isaac Newton)

But the most important thing is not power but getting power to the ground.

I am not disagreeing with anything you are saying, but I will explain my point with a formula one car: It has twice the force towards the tarmac; that is twice the weight at speeds above 100mph due to its ground effects (aero). yes, that means it can drive upside down in a tunnel at high speeds. It actually accelerates quicker from 100-200 than it does from 0-100 because of this added "weight" . Weight (force of gravity) is traction. (as well as coefficient of friction between hot rubber and asphalt)

so if there is a huge amount of downforce which essentially turns a 740 kg racecar into essentially a 1600 kg car at higher speeds, is that not the same as having to turn a 1600 kg car in the corners and slow it down?

The reason they want a light weight on a racecar is really for acceleration ( estimate 7 lbs = 1 hp); to which the electric vehicle has no issue with.

Thanks for correction of centripetal vs centrifugal. I always get the two confused.

But the reason F1 and race cars in general go lighter weight is for cornering and braking, but acceleration. Best way to think of this is the force components that tire need to counter in order to maintain traction.

In a corner, the tire will see a lateral component from centripetal force, which has the car mass component in there. It would also see a significant longitudinal force when a car is accelerating or decelerating. To counter this, the tire needs the friction force, which is normal force x coefficient of friction. The normal force component is primary made of weight of the car and the downforce. As the mass of the car goes up, that normal force increase, but it also increase the lateral loads on the tire because the centripetal component goes up. As the cornering velocity goes up, the v^2/r component goes up beyond gravity. To make up for this, the tire coefficient of friction needs to go up. As you can see, it gets to a point where tire itself won't work. Now, instead of doing that, you at downforce, which increase the normal force used to generate tire friction force, but without the penalty of increasing lateral loads. And downforce goes up by v^2 as well, so it does well in countering against centripetal force from cornering.

 

[ucmndd]

Again, this is true in most instances but just to point out a caveat: typically one gets larger tires for racing, which are heavier than skinny ones. In this instance the tradeoff for increased weight is trumped by greater traction.

True enough, but a lighter tire/wheel in the same size, all else being equal, will always be advantageous.

 

[dark cloud]

Just got back from a 250 km drive in the rain. (Haven't seen rain like this since June). My heavy 5000 lb car railed through the puddles and troughs of water on the highway at 130 km/h, while those kids in their Mazda's, Civic's and Suubi's with their big fat aftermarket wheels were hydroplaning all over the place. (no, my MXM4's are not new...)

Since a few formulas have been thrown around here is another: Pressure = Force/Area

Hopefully not relevant, weather at Nurburgring looks decent enough over the next few days. Hope this thing is a go; I'm excited to see the results.

 

[billkatz]

You can design multi-purpose symmetric inverter/rectifier but that reverse capability does not come for free, like motor turning into a generator, it has to be designed that way (like in the case of solar power inverters). It would not make sense for Tesla to pay for extra in parts or even testing to make the inverter be able to regen at the same rate as driving (450W for performance MS). But hey, as a number of people have pointed out, the Model S going to the ring is probably not stock, so it would have any inverter they wish.

Actually it does come for free in terms of power electronics. The energy storage (inductance of the motor/capacitors) is the same. The switches (in the case of Tesla, three pairs of power FETS from the two sides of the DC bus to the 3 phase inputs of the motor) are the same. The only difference is in the logic to drive the timing. And if you are going to have any regen at all, the work has been done to develop that logic. In the case of our microinverter, it was a small bit of extra logic in our ASIC. From what I have read about the Tesla inverter it is some extra DSP code.

 

[whitex]

Actually it does come for free in terms of power electronics. The energy storage (inductance of the motor/capacitors) is the same. The switches (in the case of Tesla, three pairs of power FETS from the two sides of the DC bus to the 3 phase inputs of the motor) are the same. The only difference is in the logic to drive the timing. And if you are going to have any regen at all, the work has been done to develop that logic. In the case of our microinverter, it was a small bit of extra logic in our ASIC. From what I have read about the Tesla inverter it is some extra DSP code.

Interesting, so they have have a universal voltage converter too, rather than a boost a buck converters separately?

I'm thinking it's a little like heater + air conditioner, or a heat-pump which can do both. Notice that Tesla did not use a heat pump in a Model S/X (I don't know about model 3). The question in my mind is, did they build a universal inverter/rectifier, and if so, why limit the regen to 50KW for cars which can supercharge at over 100KW? At highway speeds, 50KW is barely noticeable, so going higher would actually be desired from the one pedal driving perspective.

 

[dark cloud]

Tesla enlists former Formula One champion as Model S driver for Nürburgring run


Tesla on flatbed seen going to Nurburg.

Doesn't look like an official timed lap is possible unfortunately:

"It should be noted that while Tesla will not be allowed to conduct lap timing for the Model S during its participation in this coming week’s Industry Pool testing, the company will nevertheless be able to openly test the capabilities of its flagship sedan around the nearly 13-mile circuit."

 

[P100D_Me]

Elon's message to engineering:
"For this car disable all protective measures for over heating and power derate so this Model-S will do 7 or 8 minutes at full speed".
I guess we might soon find out what happens when this is the directive

If the end result is a software update that unlocks more power then go for it boys!

 

[wenkan]

Tesla enlists former Formula One champion as Model S driver for Nürburgring run


Tesla on flatbed seen going to Nurburg.

Doesn't look like an official timed lap is possible unfortunately:

"It should be noted that while Tesla will not be allowed to conduct lap timing for the Model S during its participation in this coming week’s Industry Pool testing, the company will nevertheless be able to openly test the capabilities of its flagship sedan around the nearly 13-mile circuit."

It’s just not official lap timing allowed. The onboard video is everything now, just publish on YouTube and everyone recognize that.

 

[bxr140]

Makes sense to get some laps on the car, and if an unofficial time looks good all the better.

 

[Saghost]

The question in my mind is, did they build a universal inverter/rectifier, and if so, why limit the regen to 50KW for cars which can supercharge at over 100KW? At highway speeds, 50KW is barely noticeable, so going higher would actually be desired from the one pedal driving perspective.

Why do you think they limited regen to 50 kW? My Raven regens to 81.5 kW quite consistently above ~40 mph.

 

[JasonA-EV]

Not anytime soon...

Eisbär
@jensbmn
·
2m
Correct, you need to reserve the track for a record attempt and it is booked out. There won't be any official Tesla record attempt anytime soon.

 

[dark cloud]

Pretty nice hole-n-one prize

 

[dark cloud]

Not anytime soon...

No, they are going on the track: Read the article


While initial reports following Elon Musk’s Twitter announcement noted that Tesla has not reserved an exclusive slot for a record attempt at the Nürburgring, a later statement from a Tesla spokesperson explained that the electric car maker will simply be part of the coming week’s Industry Pool testing in the track. “Tesla is excited to be a part of the Industry Pool testing community next week at the Nürburgring. Our participation is confirmed and contracted by the Nürburgring,” the spokesperson said.

 

[SMAlset]

Similar article to Teslarati’s in International Business Times:

Tesla Model S Attempts To Break Porsche Taycan's Record, Signs Formula 1 Champ's Help

 

[busaman]

well i took my 2015 p85d round the ring a couple of months back and it was rubbish bearing in mind i had 129 miles of charge to start with and the outside temp was 34deg c it took 10 minutes to complete.

the standard model s brakes cannot cope nor can the power train or the suspension

at 10km in it went to reduced power (50mph max) for 2-3 minutes i almost ran off the track twice because the brakes would not pull up the heavy old gal up the suspension is not to bad but the weight just pushes the car on in the tight corners.

by the end the brakes would hardly work and were smoking badly..

my conclusion is the taycan will wipe the floor with it unless they have dramaticly modified it (but then it would not be an off the shelf model-s)

 

[Lasairfion]

You know I was almost hoping that they'd literally just turn up on a regular public day and still smoke the record. Because extra funny.

 

[wenkan]

well i took my 2015 p85d round the ring a couple of months back and it was rubbish bearing in mind i had 129 miles of charge to start with and the outside temp was 34deg c it took 10 minutes to complete.

the standard model s brakes cannot cope nor can the power train or the suspension

at 10km in it went to reduced power (50mph max) for 2-3 minutes i almost ran off the track twice because the brakes would not pull up the heavy old gal up the suspension is not to bad but the weight just pushes the car on in the tight corners.

by the end the brakes would hardly work and were smoking badly..

my conclusion is the taycan will wipe the floor with it unless they have dramaticly modified it (but then it would not be an off the shelf model-s)

Things changed a lot after model 3 launch. The latest raven model s has all the technology needed to compete with Taycan. Yes they are off the shelf now.

 

[busaman]

Things changed a lot after model 3 launch. The latest raven model s has all the technology needed to compete with Taycan. Yes they are off the shelf now.

ok i will wait to see the outcome....

 

[wenkan]

The ultimate outcome of this is Elon now learned what the ring lap record means. As long as this thing in his mind, it’s just a question of how soon will Tesla build a car to break the records on Nordschleife. I never doubt their ability to do this, just need a little bit priority.

If raven model s cannot make it this time, then there will probably be a new model s refreshment soon. Just like the Ford vs Ferrari competence on Le Mans. The roadster should be aiming a sub 7-minute lap time now. And the spaceX package should bring it close to ID.R’s 6:05 record.

 

[Realist]

The ultimate outcome of this is Elon now learned what the ring lap record means. As long as this thing in his mind, it’s just a question of how soon will Tesla build a car to break the records on Nordschleife. I never doubt their ability to do this, just need a little bit priority.

If raven model s cannot make it this time, then there will probably be a new model s refreshment soon. Just like the Ford vs Ferrari competence on Le Mans. The roadster should be aiming a sub 7-minute lap time now. And the spaceX package should bring it close to ID.R’s 6:05 record.

Haha, very funny.

The modified Model S seems to wear Michelin Cup 2 R tires. This is a super sticky compound. It has nothing to do with the stock car.

This is the most pathetic Nürburgring attempt I have ever seen.