Model S to the Nürburgring Next Week!

[Realist]

Interesting.

I live in germany, I have done a few hundred laps on the ring. I have also tried both Model S and Model 3 P there just for fun during Touristenfahrten. The Model 3 was actually quite impressive, it could do a 8:00. The Model S P85D overheated after 3 corners.

If he wants to attack the 7:42 Musk either needs a fully new Model S or something deeply upgraded with different tires, setup etc.....

I don’t know if Musk has ever been on the Nürburgring-Nordschleife before. If he has not, he has no idea what he is up to.

Porsche holds all records on this track, non legal and street legal, both gasoline and electric. Even the VW ID R is basically a rebadged Porsche.

Viel Erfolg!

 

[ICUDoc]

Touristenfahrten

me too.

 

[Sean Wagner]

If they have it, I will buy it.

Just the thought of it makes me giddy. Now, to follow such idle speculation with excursions into roundabout etiquette.

Tesla needs the pickup (and other models) to make it a serious car company with those folks who want a cooler F150 and are willing to pay the big bucks. Tesla needs to seen as Ford or Chevy or apple pie. Car buyers need to be in an emotional turmoil when it comes to their next car purchase: trying to find reasons not to buy a Tesla.

I think Tesla actually is an infinitely more serious company than either Ford or GM. The mission makes the marque.

 

[Todd Burch]

I live in germany, I have done a few hundred laps on the ring. I have also tried both Model S and Model 3 P there just for fun during Touristenfahrten. The Model 3 was actually quite impressive, it could do a 8:00. The Model S P85D overheated after 3 corners.

If he wants to attack the 7:42 Musk either needs a fully new Model S or something deeply upgraded with different tires, setup etc....

The raven Model S has entirely new drivetrain and battery cooling, entirely different motor (switched reluctance permanent magnet), as well as an entirely new suspension, compared to the P85D.

This is the thing. Everyone is still thinking about pre-Raven track performance. Raven is an entirely different animal.

If Model 3 could do 8, Raven S can beat 7:40.

 

[Realist]

Misha on Instagram: “Trust @elonrmuskk , he is an engineer. #diy #tesla #nurburgring #nordschleife #beatthetaycan?”

The car has been spotted.

Obviously cheating, just look at the tires.

 

[ICUDoc]

Cheating? Using decent tyres? If that is the ONLY change, then we can all just ask for MSC2 on the car, or go buy them. So easy and not cheating.
Hardware changes that aren't available to the public ie a car you can't currently buy- that would be cheating

 

[plaid]

Here's how this goes down:

Tesla Model S runs the ring 41 times on a single charge!!!

and because Elon is cheeky and it's a closed course the Model S will do it without a professional driver...

** OUR RING RECORD IS 41 LAPS ON A SINGLE CHARGE, WHAT'S YOUR PORSCHE?
** OUR RING RECORD WAS SET WITHOUT A DRIVER...

Sorry for stealing Elon's thunder, but this is about what the Model S does well - real world range and autopilot/FSD.

/

 

[whitex]

??

There is absolutely no reason the S can’t regen far more than 50kw. I think tesla uses ~50kW as an intentional design decision for driver comfort and battery longevity reasons. A track mode could easily increase this.

Weight is not a limiting factor. Regen is simply running the motors in reverse. If the motors can generate 250kW, you can regen 250kW.

And regen at that power level doesn’t last long so the battery should be able to handle it.

DC/AC inverter is not symmetric, i.e. just because you can pull 450KW from the battery, convert it to AC to drive the motor, doesn't mean you can take 450KW from the motor, rectify it to DC to charge the battery. The rectifier which can do only 50KW, will burn at 450KW.

 

[Fossil Fool]

Win on Sunday, sell on Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday you get the idea! Go Team Tesla!

 

[Saghost]

Those who understand FEA would know you don't have to actually put the Raven S on the track to know how well it would do.

Nuclear weapons are still being developed without exploding very many of them.

Hmm. Controlled environment, limited access. Probably alone on the course.

If you're right about how much simulation they've been doing, they have a detailed model of the track environment. Computers are the best at holding an exact known edge value.

What if the Model S drives itself around the ring for a record time?

No driver, or a safety driver that sits there with his arms crossed the whole time...

 

[Todd Burch]

Simulation not necessary. The Instagram link above shows Tesla’s been testing at the ring.

 

[mattwhite]

There is no way a stock Raven Model S will do sub 7:42 at the Ring, even assuming it can run a lap full steam without overheating the battery and/or motors. The brakes are just not up to it. And regen at the levels available now is basically irrelevant. You need massive brakes that can scrub off tons of speed corner after corner without any fade. Porsche knows the Ring - remember when everyone thought the 918 would be the slowest out of the La Ferrari and McLaren P1, then it came out, laid down a 6:57, and Ferrari and McLaren then both refused to release their times? Guess what, the Taycan Turbo S's brake rotors are larger than on a Porsche 918!!

I'm ready to eat these words, but unless Elon brings a seriously modified S to the Ring, it's not going to happen.

 

[D.E.]

What if the Model S drives itself around the ring for a record time?

They could uncap Summon mode, put the guy with the iPhone at the end, then summon like a Banshee.

 

[D.E.]

So, about capacitors...
Could a large capacitor or an array of capacitors store the energy from hard braking (with say 1 gravity, motors producing the braking force through the regen method, as much going to the battery as it will take, the remainder being stored in the capacitor then later being fed back to the motors for subsequent acceleration and any excess fed to the batteries as they can take it? If greater braking was needed, the car’s brakes could help.

Could say 200 pounds of capacitors (chosen because that’s equivalent to the weight of a good sized driver) do the deed? Could they store that much current? If that was workable, that should decrease the heat load to the brakes and perhaps maximally use the motors perhaps decreasing the required battery output current as long as the capacitors had stored energy.

So the car could approach the turn, would use the regen from easing up on the throttle as it does now. Then when one hits the brakes, the regen system goes into a strong slowing mode, the excess power going to the capacitor. If more braking is needed, then the normal braking system applied. Then as one rounds the corner with the capacitors stored energy, that energy could go to the motors and if the batteries could take energy, possibly go to the batteries as well. The capacitor would presumably get rid of its stored energy pretty quickly so should be ready to accept energy from the braking at the next corner.

I don’t know if the capacitors could be used this way, whether they could store sufficient electrical energy from a two and a half ton car quickly slowing from say 150 to 30 MPH.

Does anyone know?

Then there’s the heat issue, as I understand it, the regen system is somewhere around 80-90 percent efficient. So there’s 10-20% loss. That loss must be converted to heat somewhere, is that heat produced in the batteries or does it occur elsewhere in the system?

 

[Pale_Rider]

What you describe is likely one of the first applications of super caps until their capacity makes them a viable battery substitute.

 

[Saghost]

So, about capacitors...
Could a large capacitor or an array of capacitors store the energy from hard braking (with say 1 gravity, motors producing the braking force through the regen method, as much going to the battery as it will take, the remainder being stored in the capacitor then later being fed back to the motors for subsequent acceleration and any excess fed to the batteries as they can take it? If greater braking was needed, the car’s brakes could help.

Could say 200 pounds of capacitors (chosen because that’s equivalent to the weight of a good sized driver) do the deed? Could they store that much current? If that was workable, that should decrease the heat load to the brakes and perhaps maximally use the motors perhaps decreasing the required battery output current as long as the capacitors had stored energy.

So the car could approach the turn, would use the regen from easing up on the throttle as it does now. Then when one hits the brakes, the regen system goes into a strong slowing mode, the excess power going to the capacitor. If more braking is needed, then the normal braking system applied. Then as one rounds the corner with the capacitors stored energy, that energy could go to the motors and if the batteries could take energy, possibly go to the batteries as well. The capacitor would presumably get rid of its stored energy pretty quickly so should be ready to accept energy from the braking at the next corner.

I don’t know if the capacitors could be used this way, whether they could store sufficient electrical energy from a two and a half ton car quickly slowing from say 150 to 30 MPH.

Does anyone know?

Then there’s the heat issue, as I understand it, the regen system is somewhere around 80-90 percent efficient. So there’s 10-20% loss. That loss must be converted to heat somewhere, is that heat produced in the batteries or does it occur elsewhere in the system?

In theory capacitors can be used that way. I'm not sure that would help the S through the ring faster.

The defining feature of capacitors is that the voltage varies linearly with the energy stored in them. So it's hard to integrate them into the existing high voltage circuits that are held to a consistent voltage by the main battery pack.

But if they aren't on that circuit, the power you can put through them is limited by the converter that connects them to the drive inverters.

I'm not sure that the amount of power/heating the battery can absorb is a limiting factor for Tesla racing - I think it is mostly rotor heating and somewhat inverter heating, and a capacitor won't help either of those.

 

[BigNick]

So, about capacitors...
Could a large capacitor or an array of capacitors store the energy from hard braking (with say 1 gravity, motors producing the braking force through the regen method, as much going to the battery as it will take, the remainder being stored in the capacitor then later being fed back to the motors for subsequent acceleration and any excess fed to the batteries as they can take it? If greater braking was needed, the car’s brakes could help.

Could say 200 pounds of capacitors (chosen because that’s equivalent to the weight of a good sized driver) do the deed? Could they store that much current? If that was workable, that should decrease the heat load to the brakes and perhaps maximally use the motors perhaps decreasing the required battery output current as long as the capacitors had stored energy.

So the car could approach the turn, would use the regen from easing up on the throttle as it does now. Then when one hits the brakes, the regen system goes into a strong slowing mode, the excess power going to the capacitor. If more braking is needed, then the normal braking system applied. Then as one rounds the corner with the capacitors stored energy, that energy could go to the motors and if the batteries could take energy, possibly go to the batteries as well. The capacitor would presumably get rid of its stored energy pretty quickly so should be ready to accept energy from the braking at the next corner.

I don’t know if the capacitors could be used this way, whether they could store sufficient electrical energy from a two and a half ton car quickly slowing from say 150 to 30 MPH.

Does anyone know?

Then there’s the heat issue, as I understand it, the regen system is somewhere around 80-90 percent efficient. So there’s 10-20% loss. That loss must be converted to heat somewhere, is that heat produced in the batteries or does it occur elsewhere in the system?

I think a capacitor bank/supercap/whatever that can store 48 MJ or so (400V, 2000A, 60 sec) would be awesome to have. Ludicrous power on tap, and full acceleration available from 100% SOC down to 10% SOC or even less, assuming the cap stays charged up.

About 10 MJ would be sufficient for a 1/4 mile drag (under 12 sec). Hot-lapping Laguna Seca probably wouldn't need the 48 MJ/60 sec either. 48 MJ might not be enough for the 'Ring, however. Tons of elevation changes and a LONG straightaway IIRC, only have seen it on Top Gear.

I admit to knowing f-all about this sort of thing, so I have no idea how much weight it would require to store 48 MJ of energy.

 

[Doanster1]

No, I don't think Randy has enough seat time at the Ring. The best person for the job, outside of factory drivers, is either Sabine Schmidt or Christian Gedhardt.

Sabine (Schmitz) is exactly who I was thinking of/hoping it’ll be! Icing on the cake is if the livery of the Model S they use looks like the old “Ring Taxi” she used to pilot (sans Bimmer colors naturally).

 

[Krash]

...a.strategic decision on their part to avoid Osbourning ...

Here are some things Tesla certainly has in Model S test mules, all of which could be put in one car for the ring if Osborning wasn't an issue:

1. Higher torque settings
2. Better tires
3. Lighter rims
4. Ceramic brakes
5. Maxwell UltraCap battery buffer
6. Maxwell UltraCap active (more than dynamic) suspension
7. Twin torque vectoring induction rear
8. New, higher capacity cells
9. Cut down (lightened) battery packs for track use wired for higher voltage and lower weight and capacity
10. Post raven cooling upgrades
11. Next gen inverter designs
12. 600v and 800v volt subsystems
13. Current induction design built w expensive precious metal induction rotor and coil for heat dissepation
14. Exotic Back EMF reducing induction designs

 

[ucmndd]

If Model 3 could do 8, Raven S can beat 7:40.

Serious question, have you any direct experience with track racing? Particularly on circuits similar to the Nurburgring?

I’d fully expect the 3P to be faster than any Model S.