-
Want to remove ads? Register an account and login to see fewer ads, and become a Supporting Member to remove almost all ads.
Model S vs BMW i8
- Thread starter B.TSLA
- Start date
-
- Tags
- Electric Vehicles
What he said.
Although to be fair BMW's temperature management seems to be on par with Tesla. The other things they seem to be lacking are redundancy, where with so many smaller cells Tesla can afford to have a few go bad, BMW cannot. In addition, Tesla's physical partitioning to prevent cascade failure is also missing in the BMW design. BMW doesn't think they need it with the chemistry they've chosen, as did Boeing. Time will tell.
I strongly doubt that statement, to be honest ... batteries have been around for a pretty long time and are in pretty widespread use, too ...
Making a battery bigger is, at the end of the day, just a matter of packing in more cells and maybe adding more and more powerful thermal management. The Tesla battery, as good as it may be, isn't genius but brute force engineering.
Most likely there is internal resistance from high up in the company to going further down the EV route. Lots and lots of petrolheads in important positions at BMW.
You know a genious when his product is brilliant and at the same time quite simple. Brute force sendomly produces simple and good results.
Market says Tesla baterry is genious - no one produces anything even close.
Nobody had the guts to go all out with such a massive battery in such an expensive, pure electric vehicle. At a conventional car company the marketing guys would have screamed bloody murder if the engineers had announced they were going to use laptop batteries and the management would have dismissed such an idea out of hand.
That doesn't mean the engineers would not have been able to do it if the yhad been allowed to.
That doesn't mean the engineers would not have been able to do it if the yhad been allowed to.
Thanks for underlining my point. While BMW engineers might be capable of making a decent large battery, BMW as the complete organization is not capable to bring a vehicle with such a battery to market any time soon. When BMW brings on the i5, we will see if they make it to compete with any of there conventional cars.
I didn't underline your point. You said they didn't know how to make a big battery, as in, they didn't have the technical expertise ... which I doubt.
That's a bit different than saying a company basically decides not to produce such a battery due to management, marketing and product line-up reasons, which is basically what BMW did.
I will admit that I think they are wrong on that point. Just because their "electronaut" program has shown them that very few people actually need so much range buyers will still want more. The ill-fated 40kwh Model S is ample proof of that. IMHO a triple digit mile range even in winter with the heating on is a must for an electric vehicle if it ever wants to be considered a "real" car by real world drivers, not just the "green" faction.
That's a bit different than saying a company basically decides not to produce such a battery due to management, marketing and product line-up reasons, which is basically what BMW did.
I will admit that I think they are wrong on that point. Just because their "electronaut" program has shown them that very few people actually need so much range buyers will still want more. The ill-fated 40kwh Model S is ample proof of that. IMHO a triple digit mile range even in winter with the heating on is a must for an electric vehicle if it ever wants to be considered a "real" car by real world drivers, not just the "green" faction.
Amplify Mentor Event: Marc Tarpenning (Tesla) - YouTube
skip to 52:00
I agree with Volker that BMW or any other car manufacturer is pretty much incompetent when it comes to new technology, reason is they have outsourced almost everything.
Just watch the 3minutes parts where Mark Tarpenning, one of the Tesla Motors Co-Founders gives an inside into the car industry.
skip to 52:00
I agree with Volker that BMW or any other car manufacturer is pretty much incompetent when it comes to new technology, reason is they have outsourced almost everything.
Just watch the 3minutes parts where Mark Tarpenning, one of the Tesla Motors Co-Founders gives an inside into the car industry.
But remember -- BMW engineers are masters of internal combustion. Electrical engineering? BMW has been outsourcing everything to do with electrons for decades.
Ah, but it is genius. Conventional thinkers trap themselves and resist change. Convention was that you needed large format cells with simple integration. If you think about it, basically they're outsourcing the problems to the cell manufacturing and crossing their fingers. The geniuses think holistically and said, hang on a minute there
- maybe if we do more of the heay lifting, the cell guys will have an easier job making cheap cells.
- even if we can't do cheap right now, we can do awesome. People will buy awesome.
And the battery is just one piece of their thinking that's different.
jkliu47
Member
I don't know if this has been brought up, but does owning a BMW i8 require always valet parking or straddling 2 parking spots? Has anyone figured out how to squeeze in and out of one in a full parking lot with those doors?
And oh yes, making sure there is adequate vertical clearance too!
And oh yes, making sure there is adequate vertical clearance too!
I have to say, as a Business buyer in the UK, these two cars are VERY comparable. A very well spec'd MS P85+ for me would cost £91,880 compared to an i8 costing £104,903. That's a £13k difference. The thing is, in the UK, I can offset my company profits and, long story short, save 20% of the car's price. So, the Model S costs me £73,504 and the i8 £86,322 effectively. Given the MPG of the i8 and the lack of petroleum used in the MS, there aren't many luxury, sport ICE cars that offer a second row of seating that would compete on overall price AND running costs. The Porsche 911 is one, but it has less storage capacity than the i8, and whilst storage space isn't a key item on my list, I would like to be able to fit a child's buggy in the car. So, for me, looking at a new luxury, sport, fast car I'm choosing between the two.
I must say that realistically, I'd expect to achieve 75mpg in the BMW. For the MS, I'm a bit confused about the range. I read 312miles in some places and 265miles in others. Can anyone clarify why I am seeing two figures for the 85kw battery cars?
I'm undecided on the i8's looks, but one things for sure, those doors are great! Maybe that's the kid in me!
I'm not sure that the back seats of the i8 will be big enough for a child seat and they're certainly not as big as the MS's. The running costs are higher. The technology is older. The looks are questionable. The interior layout is nice, but not as nice as the MS. The electric range is poor although overall range is comparable to the MS (although quicker to extend the range of the i8 by filling up the petrol tank). The MS has back doors and lots of storage (which is nice if not a necessity). The MS is faster. The i8 might be faster on a track but I'm rarely - if ever - going to do track driving.
So, these are comparable cars for a business purchase in the UK. I'm just torn as to which one to opt for. I've reserved an i8 as I don't want to miss out if that's what I opt for, but for every argument I can think of, on paper the MS wins. Perhaps I shouldn't just be looking on paper?
I must say that realistically, I'd expect to achieve 75mpg in the BMW. For the MS, I'm a bit confused about the range. I read 312miles in some places and 265miles in others. Can anyone clarify why I am seeing two figures for the 85kw battery cars?
I'm undecided on the i8's looks, but one things for sure, those doors are great! Maybe that's the kid in me!
I'm not sure that the back seats of the i8 will be big enough for a child seat and they're certainly not as big as the MS's. The running costs are higher. The technology is older. The looks are questionable. The interior layout is nice, but not as nice as the MS. The electric range is poor although overall range is comparable to the MS (although quicker to extend the range of the i8 by filling up the petrol tank). The MS has back doors and lots of storage (which is nice if not a necessity). The MS is faster. The i8 might be faster on a track but I'm rarely - if ever - going to do track driving.
So, these are comparable cars for a business purchase in the UK. I'm just torn as to which one to opt for. I've reserved an i8 as I don't want to miss out if that's what I opt for, but for every argument I can think of, on paper the MS wins. Perhaps I shouldn't just be looking on paper?
265 miles is the EPA certified range. 312 miles is the NEDC certified range. The EPA test is the US test and the NEDC test is the European test. Of these, the EPA test is closest to being realistic, though even the EPA test can be somewhat optimistic. I would consider 200 miles a fairly safe range in all conditions.
Thanks Yggdrasill. I've been confused by that for a whir now! :smile:
- - - Updated - - -
* while, not whir
moollar
Member
Reading through your post, it sounds like you keep finding reasons to get the Model S and also reasons to NOT get the i8 (costs more, not as much room, looks, technology, etc.). Sounds to me like you've already made up your mind.
Oh, and welcome to the forum. :smile:
Hi. Thanks for the welcome :smile:
I do keep swaying back and forth and can't decide. I have a reservation on an i8 just in case, but I'm utterly torn between two very different cars.
I've finally driven a Model S now and was thoroughly impressed. I was impressed by how close my driving was on the test drive to the 'typical range' and I think that that 230-260 miles would be easily achievable.
One thing I was told on the drive was that accelerating and braking (not regen) on a country road between 30-60 mph will use up more of the battery than driving a constant 70-75mph on a motorway. Any thoughts on this?
Hi. You are right, two very different cars. i8 definitely more sporty looking and sleek while Model S P85+ actually is quicker and much more practical in terms of hauling people and stuff around.
A steady 50mph on a country road should get you close to the ideal 300 mile range assuming mild weather and not a lot of hills. That would use a lot less energy than 75mph on highway which would give closer to a ~240 mile range or so. They are right that if you are accelerating and friction breaking a lot ln a country road that could use more energy but a steady 30-50mph will take you a lot farther.
Last edited:
Mayhemm
Model S P85+ "Lola"
It's true of any vehicle (whether EV or ICE) that decelerating and accelerating repeatedly will wreak havoc on your mileage. Though why would you be braking without regen unless you were coming to a full stop? If you're out for a "spirited" drive in the country and needing to brake often around corners and such, you likely aren't only traveling between 30 and 60mph.
I don't think this is a fair comparison.... It is exactly like comparing apples to oranges.. they are similar as for they are fruits, as for the Model S and BMW i8 is a vehicle. The Model S is a luxury sedan and the i8 is a sports car... Even though the Model S has the same performance as the i8, they are completely different propulsion systems. One is a fully electric vehicle and the other is a hybrid. On the same note, the Model S has much more room and seating for 5 adults and 2 children. As for the BMW i8 it is only to have fun, arrive in style, and to impress.
Let us wait to compare the Model S by allowing other motor companies to have a DIRECT competition with Tesla. Comparing a Model S to a sports car BMW i8 is an indirect comparison.
Elon stated that in the near future that Roadster will be revamped and for onlookers to hold out for a little longer. Once this happens then we can compare.
Let us wait to compare the Model S by allowing other motor companies to have a DIRECT competition with Tesla. Comparing a Model S to a sports car BMW i8 is an indirect comparison.
Elon stated that in the near future that Roadster will be revamped and for onlookers to hold out for a little longer. Once this happens then we can compare.
Mayhemm
Model S P85+ "Lola"
All true, but as the Model S has NO direct competitors (size, performance, range, etc) this gives us something to do while the other automakers get their act together. :wink:
Last edited:
Similar threads
