Model S vs. E63 AMG Mercedes 0-110 mph race

[Johann Koeber]

I am wondering about range of the MS on the Autobahn.

Fact is, I am guilty of driving fast when situation (traffic, weather, speed limit) allows it. My current car is capable of 250 km/h (better than 155 mph), but I very seldom go over 180 km/h (112 mph), because it strains my concentration. Even when I set my cruise control to this speed (180, which is the fastest it will lock in), when I look at my average speed during a 2 hour trip, I seldom get more than 120 km/h (75 mph). After 2 hours I usually take a break.

So. I am looking forward to testing the real range under these circumstances (MSP, obviously 85 kWh). My guess would be 350 km should be possible on a full (range) charge, 300 km on a standard charge. This would make me happy. If I need more range, I will have to cut off the peak speeds - just set the cruise control to 160 or 140 should give about 10% more range each step.

This car is about acceleration. I can´t wait to do the test in real life and post the results here. Stay tuned 6 months from now ...

 

[AustinPowers]

My current car is capable of 250 mph...

What on earth is your current car? Bugatti Veyron? If so, congrats, man!

Or did you mean 250 kph?

 

[Johann Koeber]

No, km/h, sorry

I don't like the Veyron because of range and maintenance cost

 

[AustinPowers]

No, km/h, sorry

I don't like the Veyron because of range and maintenance cost

Don't forget the abysmal cargo volume :biggrin:

 

[CapitalistOppressor]

While it is true that ICEs have varying efficiency across their speed (rpm) range, this isn't really true for AC induction motors. They are pretty much equally efficient across their whole range (with maybe their last 5% of speed dropping a percentage point or two). The maximum power drops off at high speeds, but efficiency stays above 90%. Adding a transmission would introduce more losses than you would see gains. The only thing a transmission would afford a EV is greater range of speeds.

You get higher possible speeds with a transmission because the gearing gives you a mehanical advantage, such that a given power output by the motor will allow the car to go progressively faster as you switch gears.

The relative efficiency of the motor doesn't matter when discussing mechanical advantage. If you can go faster at any fixed power output, that necessarily means you will go farther at that power output, meaning you are more efficient.

 

[ElSupreme]

You get higher possible speeds with a transmission because the gearing gives you a mehanical advantage, such that a given power output by the motor will allow the car to go progressively faster as you switch gears.

This is true. But your post mentioned efficiency directly. See below for some more.

The relative efficiency of the motor doesn't matter when discussing mechanical advantage. If you can go faster at any fixed power output, that necessarily means you will go farther at that power output, meaning you are more efficient.

The Tesla does NOT have a fixed power output. Same for your ICE. If you put a second gear on a Tesla the motor will run slower, but more torque will be required. Power is basically torque times motor speed (motor). When you change gearing you drop speed by the same factor you increase required torque, the net result is an equivalent amount of power required regardless of what gear you are in.

Because the motor in a Tesla is equally efficient (or very close) at 5,000 rpm, and 10,000 rpm a transmission wont increase efficiency Lets say you need 100 lb/ft of torque (at the motor in 1st gear) to maintain speed. You have a second gear that is twice as tall. You can half your motor speed by shifting, but you now require 200 lb/ft of torque (at the motor in 2nd gear). Power requirements are the same rpm*100 or 1/2rpm*200 in both cases. This is why you don't start in 6th gear. You need more torque towards the wheels.

Gearing won't give you more range. It will give you more speed at the cost of acceleration, or vise versa. And it will allow you to pick your engine/motor speed but by itself won't give you efficiency.

The reason why ICEs have transmissions is because their torque and power are highly variable over different engine speeds, as well as their efficiency.

I have a bicycle with 20 gears on it but I can tell you it takes the same amount of power in each gear to go a given speed. Sometimes it is easy to push the pedals but you have to spin like mad. Or you can setup it up like doing leg presses but you don't do very many of them. Again those are for hitting an efficient spot for muscle movement use slow twitch muscle (as fast as it will work) with as little resistance as possible.

 

[PeterSZ]

I am wondering about range of the MS on the Autobahn.

Fact is, I am guilty of driving fast when situation (traffic, weather, speed limit) allows it. My current car is capable of 250 km/h (better than 155 mph), but I very seldom go over 180 km/h (112 mph), because it strains my concentration. Even when I set my cruise control to this speed (180, which is the fastest it will lock in), when I look at my average speed during a 2 hour trip, I seldom get more than 120 km/h (75 mph). After 2 hours I usually take a break.

So. I am looking forward to testing the real range under these circumstances (MSP, obviously 85 kWh). My guess would be 350 km should be possible on a full (range) charge, 300 km on a standard charge. This would make me happy. If I need more range, I will have to cut off the peak speeds - just set the cruise control to 160 or 140 should give about 10% more range each step.

This car is about acceleration. I can´t wait to do the test in real life and post the results here. Stay tuned 6 months from now ...

Johann you will not get 300km range at 180km/hr. You can drive 130km/hr maximum if the Tesla-stats are correct - an I expect them to be. So fast acceleration yes, 180km/hr on cruise control for long distances, no.

- - - Updated - - -

Another thing - did they use the launch-control in the AMG??

Usually that means that the engine sits at 4000rpm and the car takes care of the rest as soon as you release the brakes - or some similar procedure. In the vid it seems the Merc starts at very low revs - not launch control.
But I believe that even with use of LC on the Benz the Model S would still have beaten it - albeit with a smaller margin. The same goes for the M5 and the Viper I believe. It just would have been a fairer comparison to completely silence all ICE-fan comments.

Tesla Model S - resistance is futile.

 

[fiksegts]

Launch control in the AMG is worthless, the car has so much torque you can't even get off the line from idle without spinning on the street.... Viper never had launch control until the latest 2013 model....

that E63 now has a tune running 730HP and it killed the Tesla at the track running 11.1 @ 129 MPH....

Another thing - did they use the launch-control in the AMG??

Usually that means that the engine sits at 4000rpm and the car takes care of the rest as soon as you release the brakes - or some similar procedure. In the vid it seems the Merc starts at very low revs - not launch control.
But I believe that even with use of LC on the Benz the Model S would still have beaten it - albeit with a smaller margin. The same goes for the M5 and the Viper I believe. It just would have been a fairer comparison to completely silence all ICE-fan comments.

Tesla Model S - resistance is futile.

 

[PeterSZ]

Launch control in the AMG is worthless, the car has so much torque you can't even get off the line from idle without spinning on the street.... Viper never had launch control until the latest 2013 model....

that E63 now has a tune running 730HP and it killed the Tesla at the track running 11.1 @ 129 MPH....

Is there of vid of that??

 

[Right_Said_Fred]

Launch control in the AMG is worthless, the car has so much torque you can't even get off the line from idle without spinning on the street.... Viper never had launch control until the latest 2013 model....

that E63 now has a tune running 730HP and it killed the Tesla at the track running 11.1 @ 129 MPH....

The problem with cars like the AMG is that they need launch control.

The E63 is generation how much and perfected version how much of a proven and evolved model? The Model S is a car that came out just half a year ago. Wait till Tesla (or a tuner) comes up with a Model S Super Performance that is lighter, has a more powerful inverter, etc.

 

[brianman]

Young company. Second vehicle offering. First mostly-their-tech vehicle offering (chassis, etc.). First edition of the vehicle model. Stock -- no mods, no tuning. EV.

The vehicle glides up to the line and holds its own against some impressive traditional vehicles, so much so that the traditional vehicles want a rematch after being tuned.

If that's not success in slaying a few handfuls of EV myths, I don't know what is.

 

[fiksegts]

The 2014 E63 will have AWD, it will destroy any sedan and my other sports cars...

The problem with cars like the AMG is that they need launch control.

The E63 is generation how much and perfected version how much of a proven and evolved model? The Model S is a car that came out just half a year ago. Wait till Tesla (or a tuner) comes up with a Model S Super Performance that is lighter, has a more powerful inverter, etc.

- - - Updated - - -


yes, coming soon....

Is there of vid of that??

 

[stopcrazypp]

The problem with cars like the AMG is that they need launch control.

The E63 is generation how much and perfected version how much of a proven and evolved model? The Model S is a car that came out just half a year ago. Wait till Tesla (or a tuner) comes up with a Model S Super Performance that is lighter, has a more powerful inverter, etc.

If Tesla puts the drive-train in the AWD Model X Performance (which adds a 150kW/200hp motor to the front and probably higher density more powerful batteries) into the Model S then you'll get similar performance to the AWD E63 that is rumored to be coming out.

 

[PeterSZ]

Young company. Second vehicle offering. First mostly-their-tech vehicle offering (chassis, etc.). First edition of the vehicle model. Stock -- no mods, no tuning. EV.

The vehicle glides up to the line and holds its own against some impressive traditional vehicles, so much so that the traditional vehicles want a rematch after being tuned.

If that's not success in slaying a few handfuls of EV myths, I don't know what is.

E63 vs MS = end of the line dinosaur vs. First generation EV

 

[fiksegts]

2014 E63 S 4matic is not a rumor.... it will be here in a month or so.... that would be great to have Tesla go after AMG but I really doubt it will happen for years...

If Tesla puts the drive-train in the AWD Model X Performance (which adds a 150kW/200hp motor to the front and probably higher density more powerful batteries) into the Model S then you'll get similar performance to the AWD E63 that is rumored to be coming out.

 

[Jaff]

Not sure it will take years...the Roadster with it's planned upgrades will probably lower the 0-60 times that which the (ICE) AMG may never achieve...as always, lessons learned from the Roadster will fuel changes in the Model S...also, time is ticking against the AMG (ICE), unless MB starts manufacturing an electric version...just my opinion...

 

[fiksegts]

my Nissan GT-R went 0-60 in 2.7 seconds as it came from the factory.... no production car is doing that without AWD and the roadster would need ton of work to do that... It will be a while for Tesla...

 

[stopcrazypp]

my Nissan GT-R went 0-60 in 2.7 seconds as it came from the factory.... no production car is doing that without AWD and the roadster would need ton of work to do that... It will be a while for Tesla...

Drop in the drive-train of the Model X Performance in a lighter more aerodynamic body and they have a 465kW (624 hp) car with 33:67 rear biased AWD. That should be able to beat the GT-R no problem in 0-60.
http://www.teslamotors.com/modelx

If you are talking about an upgrade to the old Roadster, the old pack used 2400 mAh cells @ 4.018C (225/56kWh). If they swap in the 4000mAh cells that will likely be used in the Model X (and make the appropriate upgrades elsewhere) they can push 1.6x the power, 1.74x if they are willing to push the cells as hard as they are pushing the 40kWh pack (4.375C = 175kW/40kWh). That will boost available power for the Roadster to 391.5kW (525hp, 225kW*1.74). From the Elise forums, ~500hp should push 0-60 to the 3 second range or under.

The current GTR makes 545 hp and has adjustable rear bias (front can receive 0-50% of the torque) AWD. Judging from the older model, launch control shaves about 0.6 seconds, so without it the car would have 0-60 in 3.3 seconds.

I say Tesla can get better or really close if they really wanted to.

 

[CapitalistOppressor]

This is true. But your post mentioned efficiency directly. See below for some more.



The Tesla does NOT have a fixed power output.

I am aware of that, and perhaps I should have used the term "constant." I just meant, if you pick any particular spot on the power curve to compare to, i.e. maximum power output in a hypothetical first gear vs maximum power output in a hypothetical 3rd gear. Output (work) is the same. Speed increases. Distance traveled per hour of work increases.

I have a bicycle with 20 gears on it but I can tell you it takes the same amount of power in each gear to go a given speed. Sometimes it is easy to push the pedals but you have to spin like mad. Or you can setup it up like doing leg presses but you don't do very many of them. Again those are for hitting an efficient spot for muscle movement use slow twitch muscle (as fast as it will work) with as little resistance as possible.

Exactly. Except that 5 minutes of work in first gear will get you to the end of the block, while 5 minutes of work in 20th gear will get you to Walmart. If you can pedal in either gear for an hour before you get tired, that amount of work is the limit of your own personal biological battery. Operating in 20th gear is far more efficient in terms of speed and distance traveled. That's your mechanical advantage.

The Model S Performance has a maximum speed of ~130mph.

This speed is roughly correlated with the maximum output of the motor (which is widely believed to be correlated to the maximum output of the battery).

You agree that changing gear ratios can increase maximum speed.

If the current gear ratios at the maximum output of the motor get you to 130mph, and a hypothetical taller gear will get you to 150mph at maximum output, how exactly does the battery get drained quicker with the taller gears? Is the battery able to output more than it's maximum output, or will battery for some reason output more power than the motor on the Model S is currently able to consume?

If the power output is a constant, but speed increases, that means distance traveled increases as well, unless the amount of time you can maintain that power output somehow decreases. Why would that happen?


Edit: Re-reading the bolded area, I might have misunderstood what you said (ie "given speed"). Not true. You will quickly exhaust yourself attempting to go 30mph in first gear. The higher the RPM's, the higher your energy output, regardless of how "easy" it feels. In fact, the human leg is limited to the amount of work it is able to perform. You are able to increase speeds on a bicycle precisely because of the mechanical advantage conferred by progressively taller gears.

 

[jerry33]

Edit: Re-reading the bolded area, I might have misunderstood what you said (ie "given speed"). Not true. You will quickly exhaust yourself attempting to go 30mph in first gear. The higher the RPM's, the higher your energy output, regardless of how "easy" it feels. In fact, the human leg is limited to the amount of work it is able to perform. You are able to increase speeds on a bicycle precisely because of the mechanical advantage conferred by progressively taller gears.

Muscles use two sources of energy fat an sugar (there are other terms for this, but I forgot the correct names). Pedaling at around 80 to 90 rpm the body burns fat and can continue this for a very long time--hundreds of kilometers. Gearing allows the power input (pedaling) to match the power required in various conditions by varying the speed while not over-stressing the person pedaling. With a one speed bicycle when power requirements are higher (going uphill for example) a person can burn sugar and produce more power at lower rpms but it can't keep that up for very long because the supply of sugar is limited, and beyond a certain power requirement the person can't pedal at all and must get off and walk.

An electric motor has a far wider power output range than a person but the same principles apply--given too high a power requirement the motor will just stall.