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Model S/X deliveries drop off cliff, down 56%
- Thread starter ucmndd
- Start date
Well, better. But still a $71,600 cash price, and the inventory 75’s will be gone soon.
Uncle Paul
Well-Known Member
S and X sales have suffered with the reduction in the Federal Tax Credit. That went a long way in making them a value proposition purchase. Not many of those sales have gone to the Model 3 and will also be siphoned off by the Model Y.
Tesla saw this coming long before the rest of us, and reacted by elimination of the 75 battery size. Now you can only purchase the larger and more expensive 100 KWh battery. It is still the premium luxury version.
Tesla saw this coming long before the rest of us, and reacted by elimination of the 75 battery size. Now you can only purchase the larger and more expensive 100 KWh battery. It is still the premium luxury version.
I agree with most of the comments on this thread. I'm on my second S, and it'll be 3 yrs old in June; I'm ready to upgrade, and would order tomorrow if a refresh was announced, but until then, I'll be keeping the one I have.
There's a marketing argument to be had that Model S has been sacrificed by Tesla to make the P3D sales strong by using 'comparative pricing'; The Model S makes a 'vaguely' comparable Model 3 appears 'cheap'. So maybe for as long as the P3D sales are strong, they'll slow-roll the S/X refresh, but, it has to be coming. If Tesla want to play with the big boys (Audi, Merc, Porsche etc), and maintain their first-mover advantage, they have to upgrade the interior. It can still be done is a classy, minimal way, but it is so lacking in both functionality and quality, even compared to cheaper brands. I'm ready for an external refresh as well, as others have said, a more aggressive stance along the lines of the Roadster design. They hired the interior guy from Volvo, and the HUD guy (I'm assuming they're still around), yet there's little evidence of their impact yet.
I love my S, and it terms of practicality, the 3 doesn't come close. But, that's the only advantage the S has for me; I don't care about the sunroof (which I have, but never use - too noisy), and the 3 wins on most other aspects; it's fun to drive, better audio, better AP (my S is AP1), better seats, snappier screen, better storage, etc etc. If the trade-in value I got for my S just before Christmas had been better, I'd have got a P3D.
There's a marketing argument to be had that Model S has been sacrificed by Tesla to make the P3D sales strong by using 'comparative pricing'; The Model S makes a 'vaguely' comparable Model 3 appears 'cheap'. So maybe for as long as the P3D sales are strong, they'll slow-roll the S/X refresh, but, it has to be coming. If Tesla want to play with the big boys (Audi, Merc, Porsche etc), and maintain their first-mover advantage, they have to upgrade the interior. It can still be done is a classy, minimal way, but it is so lacking in both functionality and quality, even compared to cheaper brands. I'm ready for an external refresh as well, as others have said, a more aggressive stance along the lines of the Roadster design. They hired the interior guy from Volvo, and the HUD guy (I'm assuming they're still around), yet there's little evidence of their impact yet.
I love my S, and it terms of practicality, the 3 doesn't come close. But, that's the only advantage the S has for me; I don't care about the sunroof (which I have, but never use - too noisy), and the 3 wins on most other aspects; it's fun to drive, better audio, better AP (my S is AP1), better seats, snappier screen, better storage, etc etc. If the trade-in value I got for my S just before Christmas had been better, I'd have got a P3D.
The title and premise of this thread have me confused - or - y'all are seeing something I am not.
Inside EV's show increased sales for the 3, X and S
Vehicle. Jan 19. - Feb 19. - Mar 19
3. --- 6500 - 5650 - 10,175
X --- 775 - 900 - 2,175
S. --- 725. - 624 - 2,275
What am I overlooking?
Inside EV's show increased sales for the 3, X and S
Vehicle. Jan 19. - Feb 19. - Mar 19
3. --- 6500 - 5650 - 10,175
X --- 775 - 900 - 2,175
S. --- 725. - 624 - 2,275
What am I overlooking?
TessieEddie
Member
I just sold my 2016 S75 (got killed on price) and bought an M3 LRD. My reasons for buying the new M3 were down to:
Much faster charging time (even faster than 100D). 17 min. vs 30 min. for 158 mi. from 10% SOC. This is a typical charge level for 80 mph driving between SCs.
Much longer range: 310 mi. vs 235 mi. (6% battery degradation - another story). This saves us two SC stops on our typical 600 mi. trips and thus a lot of time.
AWD vs RWD - Peace of mind in ice and snow.
AC is stronger and the vent directly in front of the driver is really nice. We spend 1/2 the year in FL.
Faster: 0-60 in 4.5 sec. vs 5.5 sec. - (OK this is just a bonus)
Handling is better. Model S is not bad. The M3 is just sports car level vs a good handling large sedan.
Door pockets in all doors vs none - this was always an irritation.
Adjustable front shoulder belts vs none. This was a real issue for my wife and was the one uncomfortable aspect of the MS for long trips.
As far as a "Luxury Interior", neither one is exceptional. But the white interior of my M3 is stunning and gets lots of comments. The tan leather in the MS was really nice but no one ever complimented it.
AP2 vs AP1 - In limited driving AP2 seems to be (now) a little more stable. And it will continue to improve all the way up to Full Self Driving whereas AP1 is not being upgraded.
As far as interior volume and cargo: M3 rear legroom is 0.2 in. less. Really! Headroom is 2.4 in. more! M3 front shoulder room is 1.4 in. less but not an issue for us. Rear shoulder room is 1.0 in. less, again not a big deal. The trunk is apparently quite a bit smaller but when I tested our luggage in both I realized that most of the MS trunk advantage is in the width at the rear and above the rear seats, neither one of which is especially useful. The lower trunk space appears to be larger than in the MS. Golf clubs are slightly worse: I can only fit one set of clubs in the trunk with the rear seats up. In the MS I could cram two in but not three. So really no practical difference.
The two screens of the MS are definitely nice, but I have adjusted very quickly to the center screen. The main thing that I miss is the close up of the turn by turn directions that can be displayed in the driver's display on the MS.
I have estimated saving nearly an hour in total driving/charging time on our common 600 mi. drive. This is huge for us.
In the end, I never got tired of driving the MS. I always looked forward to it. It was definitely better and more fun to drive than the Infinity G35, BMW 328i and Volt that I had before. The M3 is even more fun to drive for me. These days I look for any excuse to drive it anywhere, close or a long distance.
What I think the MS needs for a redesign that would really get people to want to upgrade would be:
Updated exterior. The MY should be the last of the melted candy bar look. It is classically beautiful but definitely getting outdated.
Larger more luxurious interior. Especially more rear legroom and headroom.
M3 level of door pockets and cup holders.
Adjustable shoulder belts!
The center screen of the M3, maybe 17 in. vs. 15 in. plus HUD for the driver would be a state of the art upgrade.
Maybe a stiffer suspension for the P and of course more power.
IMHO a range greater than 335 mi. is really only useful in as much as it allows faster charging and more power. If a 400 mi. range is offered it should be an option to keep the base price down. Personally I cannot spend more than 4 hours in a car without stopping.
Sunroof should be std. This is the case for virtually ever other luxury sedan.
Can't wait to see it someday but with the MY, Roadster and pickup all in the works I think this could be a few years yet.
As far as competitors catching up, it hasn't happened yet. Certainly the Jaguar I-pace and the Audi E-tron do not compare well in range or performance. The Porsche Taycan should be excellent, but the new Roadster will probably be much better. I think it will take another generation of competitors' EVs to catch Tesla. And hopefully by then Tesla will continue to pull ahead.
Electrify America will have a similar network to Tesla within 1-2 years and a very usable one yet this year. But apparently it is very pricey to use. And reported reliability on Plugshare has been shockingly poor! Imagine pulling into a Supercharger to find none of the chargers working! That has happened a lot with EA.
I hope to see a lot of really good EVs coming in the near future but I will always be rooting for Tesla for paving the way for aspirational cars that happen to be EVs!
Much faster charging time (even faster than 100D). 17 min. vs 30 min. for 158 mi. from 10% SOC. This is a typical charge level for 80 mph driving between SCs.
Much longer range: 310 mi. vs 235 mi. (6% battery degradation - another story). This saves us two SC stops on our typical 600 mi. trips and thus a lot of time.
AWD vs RWD - Peace of mind in ice and snow.
AC is stronger and the vent directly in front of the driver is really nice. We spend 1/2 the year in FL.
Faster: 0-60 in 4.5 sec. vs 5.5 sec. - (OK this is just a bonus)
Handling is better. Model S is not bad. The M3 is just sports car level vs a good handling large sedan.
Door pockets in all doors vs none - this was always an irritation.
Adjustable front shoulder belts vs none. This was a real issue for my wife and was the one uncomfortable aspect of the MS for long trips.
As far as a "Luxury Interior", neither one is exceptional. But the white interior of my M3 is stunning and gets lots of comments. The tan leather in the MS was really nice but no one ever complimented it.
AP2 vs AP1 - In limited driving AP2 seems to be (now) a little more stable. And it will continue to improve all the way up to Full Self Driving whereas AP1 is not being upgraded.
As far as interior volume and cargo: M3 rear legroom is 0.2 in. less. Really! Headroom is 2.4 in. more! M3 front shoulder room is 1.4 in. less but not an issue for us. Rear shoulder room is 1.0 in. less, again not a big deal. The trunk is apparently quite a bit smaller but when I tested our luggage in both I realized that most of the MS trunk advantage is in the width at the rear and above the rear seats, neither one of which is especially useful. The lower trunk space appears to be larger than in the MS. Golf clubs are slightly worse: I can only fit one set of clubs in the trunk with the rear seats up. In the MS I could cram two in but not three. So really no practical difference.
The two screens of the MS are definitely nice, but I have adjusted very quickly to the center screen. The main thing that I miss is the close up of the turn by turn directions that can be displayed in the driver's display on the MS.
I have estimated saving nearly an hour in total driving/charging time on our common 600 mi. drive. This is huge for us.
In the end, I never got tired of driving the MS. I always looked forward to it. It was definitely better and more fun to drive than the Infinity G35, BMW 328i and Volt that I had before. The M3 is even more fun to drive for me. These days I look for any excuse to drive it anywhere, close or a long distance.
What I think the MS needs for a redesign that would really get people to want to upgrade would be:
Updated exterior. The MY should be the last of the melted candy bar look. It is classically beautiful but definitely getting outdated.
Larger more luxurious interior. Especially more rear legroom and headroom.
M3 level of door pockets and cup holders.
Adjustable shoulder belts!
The center screen of the M3, maybe 17 in. vs. 15 in. plus HUD for the driver would be a state of the art upgrade.
Maybe a stiffer suspension for the P and of course more power.
IMHO a range greater than 335 mi. is really only useful in as much as it allows faster charging and more power. If a 400 mi. range is offered it should be an option to keep the base price down. Personally I cannot spend more than 4 hours in a car without stopping.
Sunroof should be std. This is the case for virtually ever other luxury sedan.
Can't wait to see it someday but with the MY, Roadster and pickup all in the works I think this could be a few years yet.
As far as competitors catching up, it hasn't happened yet. Certainly the Jaguar I-pace and the Audi E-tron do not compare well in range or performance. The Porsche Taycan should be excellent, but the new Roadster will probably be much better. I think it will take another generation of competitors' EVs to catch Tesla. And hopefully by then Tesla will continue to pull ahead.
Electrify America will have a similar network to Tesla within 1-2 years and a very usable one yet this year. But apparently it is very pricey to use. And reported reliability on Plugshare has been shockingly poor! Imagine pulling into a Supercharger to find none of the chargers working! That has happened a lot with EA.
I hope to see a lot of really good EVs coming in the near future but I will always be rooting for Tesla for paving the way for aspirational cars that happen to be EVs!
Why do so many people act surprised that S and X deliveries massively dropped AFTER Tesla discontinued the cheapest and most popular model in favor of those buyers going to a higher margin Model 3?
Would a S and X benefit from a refresh? Sure. But probably not enough to warrant it. The bread and butter is the 3 and soon the Y.
Dom33928
Member
Model S/X need to be refreshed as soon as possible, particularly the interior and with better quality plastic, more practical storage and new dashboard but please not the same as Model 3. Need also more colors and the re-availability of the sunroof for Model S.
I have a lease ending in August for a 2016 Model S75 with sunroof and do not know what I will do. Model 3 is too small inside and no hatchback. Would love to stay with Tesla but I may change my mind.
I have a lease ending in August for a 2016 Model S75 with sunroof and do not know what I will do. Model 3 is too small inside and no hatchback. Would love to stay with Tesla but I may change my mind.
They lost a lot of money getting the Model 3 into production and that has left them a bit cash poor for something like an S/X refresh. Someone who claimed to have insider information said last fall that Tesla had planned an S/X refresh rollout for Q3 or Q4 last years, but the production hell on the M3 pushed that back a year.
The Performance cars have high depreciation, but the non-P cars have much lower depreciation than other cars in the same price range. Price a 3 years old Model S vs an equivalently priced BMW, Mercedes, or Audi. The Model S will be much more expensive.
Mid-priced cars that are popular like Hondas, Toyotas, and Subarus hold their value better because the initial price is more reasonable and there is a large pool of demand who can afford to pay 80% the original price after a couple of years. The number of people who can afford to pay $100K for a car is much more limited and most of those who can afford to pay $60K for a car are generally more into creature comforts than those paying $40K. I know people who can easily pay $100K for a car if they want, but choose to drive a decently equipped $35K car because it gets the job done and they have no interest in all the bells and whistles on much more expensive cars.
Production at the GF1 continues to expand as does the size of the factory. They are expanding to keep up with needs.
Though I agree the S/X are not necessary for Tesla's vision. They started out as a premium car company because that was the way into the market. Rich people are more willing to part with $100K on something unproven. Some upper middle class people can afford a $100K car, but it's going to take a lot more budget planning and they will be more risk averse because they can't afford to lose $100K.
Once established with a reputation at the top of the market and knowing what they're doing, they can move down market to a ready audience who can't afford the more expensive car. At that point the S/X becomes a lot less critical to the future of the company. If Tesla can make a lot more money per sf of factory space making Model 3 or Y than Model S/X, then it's in their best interest to discontinue the S/X and concentrate on 3 and Y production.
If you compare apples to apples, the price of the S/X have dropped significantly. If I spec a new S as close as possible to what I have, it costs $18K less than what I paid in 2016 and has a 100KWH battery instead of 90KWH and AP 2.5 instead of AP 1. the reason the entry price is higher is the entry priced car is significantly more optioned now.
I would say the price is still a bit high, but they can't drop prices too sharply without screaming from their existing customers. Right now looking at used 2018s in California (there are none around the NW), most are in the $60Ks (they look like 75Ds). Some are in the $80Ks, which I assume are 100Ds. The ads don't usually say. If they cut prices too much they artificially force depreciation on year old used cars.
If they come out with a refresh at a much lower price then that won't be as hard on the resale market because the older cars will have features no longer available.
This is only US sales, but if you go to the same page and scroll down you can see the figures for 2018. The Q1 deliveries of S and X were higher than this year.
aesculus
Still Trying to Figure This All Out
This. ↑ ↑ ↑
I think this applies to all Tesla's right now, and EVs in general, so other auto companies are going to struggle in this area even more IMHO.
Newer isn’t necessarily better or higher quality. But it likely will mean faster charge rate and longer range... everything else is up for debate....
https://amp-reddit-com.cdn.ampproje...dont_plan/?amp_js_v=0.1&usqp=mq331AQECAEoAQ==
https://amp-reddit-com.cdn.ampproje...dont_plan/?amp_js_v=0.1&usqp=mq331AQECAEoAQ==
https://electrek.co/2019/04/05/tesla-model-s-new-electric-motors/
Appears a refresh may be in the pipeline..
Appears a refresh may be in the pipeline..
Not just production, but sales are down too. If you go to the Model S configurator, it says delivery in April for a Model S to Portland, OR. About 3 weeks order to delivery, which says the pipeline is mostly empty right now.
The new motors are a cheap upgrade that probably saves on production costs. At minimum they might be able to eliminate the small induction motor from production and focus most motor production on the already fairly large permanent magnet motors. It will also boost the range of the 100D a bit and they might keep the price the same or drop it a little. All win-win for Tesla.
The new motors are a cheap upgrade that probably saves on production costs. At minimum they might be able to eliminate the small induction motor from production and focus most motor production on the already fairly large permanent magnet motors. It will also boost the range of the 100D a bit and they might keep the price the same or drop it a little. All win-win for Tesla.
$3750 on a vehicle that costs in the general range of $75,000-$150,000 is "a long way" ?
That is not what Inside EV indicates .... "2019 Sales" - January through March 2019.
It was pointed out by another writer that by scrolling down the Inside EV page, the 2018 sales are shown and the S & X sales have slipped from 2018 levels.
That said, still the March sales of the 3 appear encouraging to me.
And don't forget, many potential buyers are having to pay Federal Income Tax right now.
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Mhoepfin
Member
The model s is the ultimate in versatility. Take the best parts of the 3 and X and you have the S.
Barklikeadog
Active Member
Seems to me the quality improved drastically on interior in 2017 of model s compared to 16 and on model x... big improvement in late 2017 early 2018... it’s like a different car
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