-
Want to remove ads? Register an account and login to see fewer ads, and become a Supporting Member to remove almost all ads.
AlanSqB
Dog Chauffeur
Really, really don't want any P option but the rest are fair game. I'd love a nice textile option, but I'm not anti-leather. I would really have to think about paying for P upgrade if it was the only way to get an early car.
Tina C
Member
I can see rewarding early adopters with getting an order faster, but I have a problem with the tax credit. All the current owners, if they bought new, already got the fed tax credit. To let them jump the line to get another tax credit over people who are buying their first EV seems unfair. Would be more fair if the fed tax credit could only be taken once, then it wouldn't be just the first 200,000 cars, but the first 200,000 first time EV buyers.
Even more profits if they'd never embarked on M3, but that wouldn't fulfill the mission. MS and MX have certainly upset some ICE makers' apple carts, but it's M3 and the Gigafactory that are really accelerating action, eg GM's Bolt and overt anti-Tesla sales model lobbying.
Tina C
Member
[/QUOTE]Would be more fair if the fed tax credit could only be taken once, then it wouldn't be just the first 200,000 cars, but the first 200,000 first time EV buyers.[/QUOTE]
Of course this is more of a problem with the way the Fed Tax Credits were set up, than with Tesla in particular.
Of course this is more of a problem with the way the Fed Tax Credits were set up, than with Tesla in particular.
I had posted a reply saying "Such as?", but then I read the article linked in your post: Elon Musk hires Apple’s alloy expert to lead materials engineering at both Tesla and SpaceX
There's some good examples of cross-pollination there. OK, I'll acquiesce. I won't like 5000 people moving in front of me, but I'll stop grumbling about it...
In addition, Tesla avoided going bankrupt in 2008 thanks to a $20M loan from SpaceX - at a time when SpaceX itself was in a precarious position.
Darryl
ModelXTracker.com Co-Adm
Would be more fair if the fed tax credit could only be taken once, then it wouldn't be just the first 200,000 cars, but the first 200,000 first time EV buyers.[/QUOTE]
Of course this is more of a problem with the way the Fed Tax Credits were set up, than with Tesla in particular.[/QUOTE]
It's not a fairness issue. As do many companies, Tesla rewards its loyal customers. Like customers who deposited $5k for a Model X reservation and hung in through three years of delays. Customers who are willing to pay four times the cost of a Model 3 for an EV car. If the Tax Rebate is that important to you there plug-in EVs which qualify for the $7,500 rebate which you can get today.
Of course this is more of a problem with the way the Fed Tax Credits were set up, than with Tesla in particular.[/QUOTE]
It's not a fairness issue. As do many companies, Tesla rewards its loyal customers. Like customers who deposited $5k for a Model X reservation and hung in through three years of delays. Customers who are willing to pay four times the cost of a Model 3 for an EV car. If the Tax Rebate is that important to you there plug-in EVs which qualify for the $7,500 rebate which you can get today.
JenniferQ
Active Member
Ha. Even my 15 y/o dd thought it was a bit much that current owners got first dibs on 3s. And I really wonder about lines on the 31st when you can't walk out with a product like an iPhone. We'll see...For TSLA, I hope the latter is true. Wish the first weren't. Think we really need new adopters to push the change forward. Those of us with MS/X can certainly afford a 3.
Tina C
Member
[/QUOTE]
It's not a fairness issue. As do many companies, Tesla rewards its loyal customers. Like customers who deposited $5k for a Model X reservation and hung in through three years of delays. Customers who are willing to pay four times the cost of a Model 3 for an EV car. If the Tax Rebate is that important to you there plug-in EVs which qualify for the $7,500 rebate which you can get today.[/QUOTE]
I can see rewarding loyal customers with getting earlier delivery of the M3, but no, I do not think it is "fair" for Tesla to predetermine who has a chance of getting a $7,500 Federal Tax Credit from US taxpayers (not Tesla), especially when the people they are choosing have ALREADY gotten a $7,500 Federal Tax Credit from US Taxpayers (not Tesla) and quite possibly more than one. On a practical note, if someone has already bought a MS or MX, then they could afford the M3 without the tax credit. Many people just couldn't afford the MS or MX as much as they would want one. The M3 gets into a price range that is more affordable for the middle class. The middle class who are also US Taxpayers. The $7,500 Federal Tax Credit could make a the difference for them to afford the M3, and as taxpayers they should get an equal chance for it. The M3 is still far out of reach for lower income people, and their tax burden is lower and they likely wouldn't be able to take advantage of the full non-refundable tax credit.
As for me, the other EV's are not feasible because their range sucks. I move every couple of years (military tells us where & when), often across half the country, and stopping to charge for an hour+ every 80 miles would never work, and neither would towing or shipping it. I think I deserve a chance of getting a Federal Tax Credit for plunking down $1000 for an EV car that I won't get for at least 2 yrs. M3 first time buyers are still early adopters of EV technology.
I ask, what makes current Tesla owners think they are owed or more deserving of a 2nd or 3rd Federal Tax Credit paid by US Taxpayers (not Tesla), than first time buyers? I personally think nobody should get the tax credit more than once, no matter how many or what brand of EV cars they buy. The tax law should have been written better.
It's not a fairness issue. As do many companies, Tesla rewards its loyal customers. Like customers who deposited $5k for a Model X reservation and hung in through three years of delays. Customers who are willing to pay four times the cost of a Model 3 for an EV car. If the Tax Rebate is that important to you there plug-in EVs which qualify for the $7,500 rebate which you can get today.[/QUOTE]
I can see rewarding loyal customers with getting earlier delivery of the M3, but no, I do not think it is "fair" for Tesla to predetermine who has a chance of getting a $7,500 Federal Tax Credit from US taxpayers (not Tesla), especially when the people they are choosing have ALREADY gotten a $7,500 Federal Tax Credit from US Taxpayers (not Tesla) and quite possibly more than one. On a practical note, if someone has already bought a MS or MX, then they could afford the M3 without the tax credit. Many people just couldn't afford the MS or MX as much as they would want one. The M3 gets into a price range that is more affordable for the middle class. The middle class who are also US Taxpayers. The $7,500 Federal Tax Credit could make a the difference for them to afford the M3, and as taxpayers they should get an equal chance for it. The M3 is still far out of reach for lower income people, and their tax burden is lower and they likely wouldn't be able to take advantage of the full non-refundable tax credit.
As for me, the other EV's are not feasible because their range sucks. I move every couple of years (military tells us where & when), often across half the country, and stopping to charge for an hour+ every 80 miles would never work, and neither would towing or shipping it. I think I deserve a chance of getting a Federal Tax Credit for plunking down $1000 for an EV car that I won't get for at least 2 yrs. M3 first time buyers are still early adopters of EV technology.
I ask, what makes current Tesla owners think they are owed or more deserving of a 2nd or 3rd Federal Tax Credit paid by US Taxpayers (not Tesla), than first time buyers? I personally think nobody should get the tax credit more than once, no matter how many or what brand of EV cars they buy. The tax law should have been written better.
I empathize with those further back in line but it is unfair to conclude that Tesla is responsible for the downstream tax consequences of giving any one group priority in reserving a vehicle. (Where does that end? Tesla is responsible for someone's ability to pay their mortgage?) It makes more sense and would be more productive to redirect your angst toward our lawmakers.
Given the likelihood that fully loaded models will be built first, those who require the tax credit to afford a Ξ will not get their car in time to get the full $7500 even if they are first in line.
(I hope the Tesla employees are given build priority even if they do not order a fully loaded Ξ and no, I don't work for Tesla. )
Foxhound199
Member
I definitely don't think it's Tesla's responsibility to monitor who gets the credit before it expires--that's on the federal government. But at the same time, it has to play into the strategy here, but the reasons are a mystery to me. As much as people see this as a token of appreciation, it is still a business decision, and one presumably that Tesla believes will help it be more successful. Letting employees go first is an easy one to understand: It makes your employees happier and I think it makes customers who have to wait happier as they know they're buying from a company that shows appreciation for its employees.
From a business point of view, giving priority to current owners is much more of a head scratcher. Yes, in business it is important to show you value your customers, but strategically, Tesla is still really the only real game in town in the premium EV business. That is to say, there's not a great risk of Tesla owners jumping ship if they aren't given preferential treatment for the next car. Someone who is not an owner but has a strong interest in the Model 3 probably has a much higher chances of choosing another brand instead if the wait is too long. The same goes for the tax credit. What is fair and what is not really isn't much of a question to me, but the question of "Who is going to buy a different car because of it expiring: owners or non-owners?" seems unavoidable, and obviously non-owners is the answer. As for the idea that current owners make the best early testers, I would be really suspicious of the claim that someone who is willing to camp out in order to get a chance to reserve a Model 3 would not be as patient and informed as an owner who couldn't be bothered to swing by the store sometime that day.
But Tesla can't be unaware of this, so it suggests a few things. One, that the delay can't be that long. Months and months of no one but wealthy current customers getting them would generate bad press and lost interest. Two, Tesla has to be pretty confident it has a big hit on its hands, and they're more worried about having more demand than they can handle than losing demand. I think Tesla is more than willing to lose those potential new customers at this point because they are worried about meeting demand even without them. Third, related but nonetheless surprising, is I don't think they care how many 24 hr or 1 week reservations they get. Nothing they have done has suggested they really want to reward people who show an early interest. I think they are more content to wait until the car is on the roads and let that do the talking for them.
From a business point of view, giving priority to current owners is much more of a head scratcher. Yes, in business it is important to show you value your customers, but strategically, Tesla is still really the only real game in town in the premium EV business. That is to say, there's not a great risk of Tesla owners jumping ship if they aren't given preferential treatment for the next car. Someone who is not an owner but has a strong interest in the Model 3 probably has a much higher chances of choosing another brand instead if the wait is too long. The same goes for the tax credit. What is fair and what is not really isn't much of a question to me, but the question of "Who is going to buy a different car because of it expiring: owners or non-owners?" seems unavoidable, and obviously non-owners is the answer. As for the idea that current owners make the best early testers, I would be really suspicious of the claim that someone who is willing to camp out in order to get a chance to reserve a Model 3 would not be as patient and informed as an owner who couldn't be bothered to swing by the store sometime that day.
But Tesla can't be unaware of this, so it suggests a few things. One, that the delay can't be that long. Months and months of no one but wealthy current customers getting them would generate bad press and lost interest. Two, Tesla has to be pretty confident it has a big hit on its hands, and they're more worried about having more demand than they can handle than losing demand. I think Tesla is more than willing to lose those potential new customers at this point because they are worried about meeting demand even without them. Third, related but nonetheless surprising, is I don't think they care how many 24 hr or 1 week reservations they get. Nothing they have done has suggested they really want to reward people who show an early interest. I think they are more content to wait until the car is on the roads and let that do the talking for them.
Tina C
Member
I think the public optics are bad for Tesla if they stack the deck so that the available tax credit will run out while fulfilling orders of existing customers who have already received the tax credit. Keep in mind the the existing customer base are people who could afford an expensive luxury car, taking a 2nd or 3rd taxpayer subsidy (handout). Leaves a bad taste in the mouth for new owners, and I bet several potential owners would jump ship and buy from a different manufacturer if they felt Tesla didn't want their business. There are problems in the way the law was written, but Tesla doesn't need to exploit them. Optics are better to order delivery based on the first come/first serve & how it's optioned model, the only exception is I have no problem with employees getting an early reservation slot. Tesla would have done better to reward it's existing customers with something coming from them, not the Fed Gov, like free Autopilot upgrade.
I think they'll be prioritizing the more expensive builds, as has been discussed. What kind of vehicles are previous owners likely to get? Probably near-loaded ones. Therefore, not a lot changes, but the impression to the previous owners is that they're being treated well because of their loyalty. That's one way to see it, anyway. That might backfire, if this thread is any example of how people feel.
One interesting thing. There's nothing stopping me from buying another Model S right now. Or two. (Well, aside from sanity and reasonableness and all that). My point is that those sales are also chewing into the tax credit. Every Model S and X sold between now and the time the Model 3 starts rolling off the line counts against the production numbers just as much as a Model 3. So I suppose if you're upset about previous owners getting the tax credit, you should be upset about previous owners buying any other Tesla.. in a way.
It's complicated, I suppose. As I've mentioned, I think the tax credit is poorly structured, but I want to be careful drawing conclusions about Tesla's actions because it might make less of a difference than we think.
"Tesla has always valued their "early adopters""
Not sure why anyone would be surprised or angry about this. It's the way things have been since day one. These owners are also part of reason there will be future models - including upcoming Model 3.
Of course us stockholders - large and small also helped out - but get no consideration in this regard.
Not sure why anyone would be surprised or angry about this. It's the way things have been since day one. These owners are also part of reason there will be future models - including upcoming Model 3.
Of course us stockholders - large and small also helped out - but get no consideration in this regard.
Sudre
Active Member
And I'll add,
What about employees? If my wife gets a job tomorrow at the local dealer washing cars does she get to reserve early? What if she quits the following week?
Exactly that.
As a current owner I was a little concerned about getting one of the early ≡'s (first 10K) because of potential issues. I did not have many problems with my early Model S but the Model ≡ is going to be my wife's and she's not big on the 'issues' side of early cars. Since the employees will be sorting out the wrinkles I feel a lot more comfortable knowing my wife's Model ≡ will most certainly have a VIN over 10K no matter how early we get our reservation in for a PxxD≡.
I think the employee Model ≡s will be completely built and delivered for the most part and the line will be running smooth before deliveries start to the general public. Other have mentioned it before. There's nothing better to get production done right when you know the car could either be your car or the person's working next to you.
Once production start outside of employees I don't think deliveries will be strictly to the West Coast. I think they will do it similar to how the S and X have been done except with the added region mix. I think the first 10K West coast reservations will get the email to configure. Once they start delivery on that group the Mountain time group will start. Then Central, then East coast. That's 40K cars. Of coarse the highest optioned cars will start first in each region.
Between employees and the first wave of regions, 2018 will be over. I am being a little pessimistic in thinking that not many Model ≡s will get delivered in 2017. 2017 will see maybe 1000 highly optioned out employee cars to work out the design wrinkles.
ProphetM
Member
So, given that employees of Tesla and SpaceX were given early access to reservations, does that mean this is the method by which priority will be given to current owners as well? That would nicely take care of the questions regarding reservation order for various groups and methods. And it would mean that current owners should expect an email to reserve sometime between now and Wednesday.
Highly optioned car > location > previous owners / employees > the world. Greatest money earnings first, quick turn around delivery second, priority of reserving as last. I believe it's determined like that and will be kept as that.
