That's very interesting. Any mention of the time course? For example would a 30% capacity loss be considered acceptable at 1 year?
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Model S90D Battery Degradation?
- Thread starter jaypatelius
- Start date
A 90kw battery never started with more than ~85kwh
Good point. Since the only spec related to capacity they provide is rated miles, I think that would have to be the method, your original rated miles. But they should specify exactly, or that 70% criteria doesn't mean much.
ahkahn
Active Member
So, I made an appointment... In turn, I get the boilerplate "Go Away!" a half a day before my appointment time.
Yesterday a Tesla service rep put it very clearly and simply: Tesla will do nothing for any amount of battery degradation. They will only respond to battery faults. And battery faults are displayed as such in the car. So if your car is not displaying a battery fault, don't bother expecting anything from Tesla. He also said that a loss of up to 10% of battery capacity in the first year is normal.
Furthermore, my experience with my car demonstrates that you cannot rely on the cars display of range to track with the loss of battery capacity. A large decrease in battery capacity could be hiding behind a small decrease in displayed range (Rated Range).
ahkahn
Active Member
You're approaching or maybe even at the 30% mark. I think that's a threshold for Tesla to actually care... and it's got the 8 year unlimited warranty. I wonder if there is anything they'll do for you now?
If the displayed max charge is that low, the real range may be even less. That displayed value may not reflect all of the battery degradation. What is your real, achieved range?
It looks to fluctuate in the app. 207 one day 200 the next... Full range is 196 and i think realistic range is about 160. Granted, there are hills and lots of head winds on my commute. It was nice to go to Vegas and work without recharging, now i have to stop once for work charge 30 mins, and 2 for Vegas. Will keep posting results if anything changes.
I'm actually due for service soon. I just hate the not being able to talk to anyone at tesla now. Its even worse because the closest service center is 75 miles away from me and they want me to use uber credits. There customer service in the beginning was a 10 now its just 5. Its so difficult to talk to anyone now, texting is fine for small stuff but for more extensive work, you have to talk.
ahkahn
Active Member
90 packs degrade faster 'for sure'. 95,000km (59k miles) update: 77,5kWh nominal pack full capacity. Equates to 73,5kWh usable. After the mandatory phantom losses occurring in a cycle (unless you go full cycle in one drive i.e. roadtrips) I can use 68-70kWh in one charge. 73kWh in roadtrips.
I have friends with 2013-14 original 85 packs and their Tesla diagnostics mode and Canbus interfaces show 76kWh nominal pack full capacity after their roughly 6-7 years and on average 35k miles.
So my pack has 25k miles more but is 3+ years younger. Also my pack is a 90 while theirs is an 85. Yet in 2020 we have the same capacity remaining...
I had Tesla do an OTA diagnostics for my pack with this exact same complaint and here's what they had to say. I appreciate their detailed explanation and I love my car every day, still foresee a long life for it but I feel disappointed for the amount of degradation I had. Especially when you consider I did high mileage but with low DC usage and in a short life span. (i.e. the pack did not stay idle for long)
I have friends with 2013-14 original 85 packs and their Tesla diagnostics mode and Canbus interfaces show 76kWh nominal pack full capacity after their roughly 6-7 years and on average 35k miles.
So my pack has 25k miles more but is 3+ years younger. Also my pack is a 90 while theirs is an 85. Yet in 2020 we have the same capacity remaining...
I had Tesla do an OTA diagnostics for my pack with this exact same complaint and here's what they had to say. I appreciate their detailed explanation and I love my car every day, still foresee a long life for it but I feel disappointed for the amount of degradation I had. Especially when you consider I did high mileage but with low DC usage and in a short life span. (i.e. the pack did not stay idle for long)
"The retention of your battery is highly dependent on how much you drive and how much time you've had the pack.
It also is minorly affected by temperatures, how deeply you discharge the pack, how much you supercharge, and what hardware is in the pack.
We have automated tools that can remotely check if your pack is behaving as expected. This has been performed and the pack is within 1% of the average of comparable packs.
Unfortunately, how much to expect for retention cannot be covered with a single number or variable and totally depends on how you treat the battery.
Please advise the customer that in order for the system to be able to calculate the capacity more precisely resting periods at low ~10-20% SOC and at high 90-100% SOC are helpful. We found no resting periods at low and high SOC values.
Calculations made by third party apps and devices are also not precise enough as they may not take into account some important factors. This might have a tolerance of several percent.
The customer also compares their pack to 85KWh packs. This is not a relevant comparison as the two packs have several differences not just a capacity difference.
Please also point out that apps that keep the vehicle awake with constant queries will also have a negative effect on battery capacity."
It also is minorly affected by temperatures, how deeply you discharge the pack, how much you supercharge, and what hardware is in the pack.
We have automated tools that can remotely check if your pack is behaving as expected. This has been performed and the pack is within 1% of the average of comparable packs.
Unfortunately, how much to expect for retention cannot be covered with a single number or variable and totally depends on how you treat the battery.
Please advise the customer that in order for the system to be able to calculate the capacity more precisely resting periods at low ~10-20% SOC and at high 90-100% SOC are helpful. We found no resting periods at low and high SOC values.
Calculations made by third party apps and devices are also not precise enough as they may not take into account some important factors. This might have a tolerance of several percent.
The customer also compares their pack to 85KWh packs. This is not a relevant comparison as the two packs have several differences not just a capacity difference.
Please also point out that apps that keep the vehicle awake with constant queries will also have a negative effect on battery capacity."
I have a 2015 P90D and while I thought I was purchasing a range upgrade a few years later I discover that what I had actually purchased was a the accelerated battery deterioration package.
Car has about 55k, very little supercharging. Last year I reported my concern of the decreased range and Tesla responded that the capacity was fine it was a calculation error and recommended changing my charging habits. For over 6 months with no improvement and them doubling down on "its a calculation error" they switched course and now say it's normal because all the cars with the same battery have the same range/capacity. According to TM-Spy I am down to about 74kw capacity which is consistent with lost range. Currently the loss is sitting around 12%.
They just cannot admit that they made a bad batch of batteries that deteriorate much faster than expected. There is no reason that after a few years the 90kw battery should have less range/capacity than the same aged 85kw
While on a smaller scale size wise, but with higher customer base, when companies like apple or Samsung realize they produced a bad batch of batteries they offer replacements. While, on the other hand Tesla replaces a few owners batteries and then tells the rest of us that it is normal.
As posted previously, now with the model 3 and Y out, they clearly don't care about the customers that believed in them and made them the company they are today. Replacing a few batteries with manufacturing flaws would go a long way to restore faith in the company. It's hard to recommend spending over 100k for a car that the manufacturer refuses to stand behind.
Car has about 55k, very little supercharging. Last year I reported my concern of the decreased range and Tesla responded that the capacity was fine it was a calculation error and recommended changing my charging habits. For over 6 months with no improvement and them doubling down on "its a calculation error" they switched course and now say it's normal because all the cars with the same battery have the same range/capacity. According to TM-Spy I am down to about 74kw capacity which is consistent with lost range. Currently the loss is sitting around 12%.
They just cannot admit that they made a bad batch of batteries that deteriorate much faster than expected. There is no reason that after a few years the 90kw battery should have less range/capacity than the same aged 85kw
While on a smaller scale size wise, but with higher customer base, when companies like apple or Samsung realize they produced a bad batch of batteries they offer replacements. While, on the other hand Tesla replaces a few owners batteries and then tells the rest of us that it is normal.
As posted previously, now with the model 3 and Y out, they clearly don't care about the customers that believed in them and made them the company they are today. Replacing a few batteries with manufacturing flaws would go a long way to restore faith in the company. It's hard to recommend spending over 100k for a car that the manufacturer refuses to stand behind.
Physicslawyer
Member
I was going to buy a 2016 Tesla with 23k miles. The battery at 100% was 261 miles. I spoke to Tesla (I physically visited a service center since I couldn't get someone on the phone after three days). They said this was normal and fine. That's an 11% drop over four years and not a lot of miles. I didn't buy the car for this reason.
Is that really "normal?!?" (Based on the above post, Tesla claims this is normal and okay)
Is that really "normal?!?" (Based on the above post, Tesla claims this is normal and okay)
henderrj
Active Member
if you check in these forums very carefully you'll find that whatever you hear from any Tesla rep is not necessarily the truth. Not because they're lying, because they really don't know. sometimes they simply guess. I've had so many variable things told me that it's almost impossible to know. Don't misunderstand me, these are people dedicated to the cause who really believe in what Tesla is doing. They tried to give the best answer that they know. 30%, no, that does seem like a lot. But with the older 90 packs it might be true. Still, it has an eight year warranty on the battery. Many people have gotten replacement packs with the 90s. But it is true that most people avoid the 90s if it is at all possible.
Physicslawyer
Member
The guys at Tesla were nice enough. I randomly entered the service building and at first thought it was empty. Once I found the people working, they tried to explain it away. I can't see how an 11% loss in four years with 23k miles is normal. I teach physics (and I'm a lawyer, hence my username), so I believe I have some understanding of what they were saying. My understanding is that they told me nothing. It was like listening to a politician when they are asked a direct question, but will say nothing for five minutes.
Several sites have been gathering data from users for a while. Here's one:
Battery Survey « Plug In America
11% is little on the high side, but 5-10% degradation is not unusual. I have a 2016 Model S 90D with around 27K miles.
My 90% is currently 261 miles. It had 0% degradation until last fall when I charged to 95% after the battery conditioning update. My 90% was 268 miles from when it was new to that point. Later on that same trip I had a leg of about 200 miles with no significant wind and only minor elevation changes, I averaged right around 285 Wh/Mi (which is the EPA rating for the early refresh Model S 90Ds). My miles driven plus miles remaining was 267 when I got to the next supercharger (I started with 90% charge).
I've had no changes since last October.
But battery packs can vary. Some are low degradation and others aren't as lucky. A sudden degradation is usually a sign something is wrong with the pack, but a slow decline to 11% is just an faster aging pack. Some people have seen a sudden drop out of nowhere of 15% or so and once they can convince the service center something is wrong, they usually get the pack replaced under warranty.
But with a used car you didn't know if it had been sudden or slow.
Physicslawyer
Member
ahkahn
Active Member
My current 90 pack with 81,000 miles on it. 265 @ 100%. 16% degradation.
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