Model X 5 Seat Deliveries

[Kincaid]

I blame Tesla's decision to bring seating in-house during the Model X development process. Their seat quality woes and other issues have clearly gone from mediocre to bad since that decision.

Tesla's interior quality was actually going upwards prior to that change, since then it has become - frankly - quite random. The five seater bench and its mismatching rear panels are a mess. The loss of seat ventilation apparently due to wear and tear issues another such. Loss of folding for the seven seater... and let's not even talk about the "let's just remove the middle seat" six seater... Amateur hour. And these have been spilling over to Model S as well, though less.

Maybe bringing something in-house was useful to get the falcon wing situation sorted out, but they should have kept that at a minimum. Now, if Tesla never tried to reach for those monoposts and falcon wings, but would have focused on quality interior in conventional ways, they would have been able to use traditional suppliers more who know their stuff...

All that said, I agree with the recent posters: what are you going do as a buyer... what else is there to do but settle at this time, if a long-range EV SUV is what you want? So, we settle. And then keep looking at that Audi and Jaguar coming out in the next year or two.

I once had a girlfriend with a great sense of humor, who was lovely, very intelligent, from a good family, and had great falcon wing doors.
Oops. No, no. I meant she had great legs. There is always a catch, always a hook, after the basics are all in order, that seals the deal. With Julie, it was her legs. They were perfect.

And that reveals the truth about the sole reason I decided to buy a Model X: falcon wing doors.
I was too young and too penniless in 1954 to buy a Mercedes 300 SL Gull Wing Coup. Every car I have ever owned was just a car, except of course for my fist car: a used 1968 VW Beetle. DeLorean? Yuck. Tacky. No thanks. Maserati? Porsches? Who needs them? Model S? Not interested. My wife sold hers after a year. Model X 6 seat and 7 seat configurations and monoposts? Weird and clumsy.

I like those unique Model X doors. The hook is everything. I like the way they operate, I like they way they look, I like what a surprise they are, and they are just pure fun for grown-ups, owners, strangers in parking lots, and kids. The supporting basics for the Model X were long range electric power and attractive design, but if not for the "hook" of those gull wings reinvented as falcon wings, and of course free supercharging for life ( I have used the 50 amp circuit breaker in my garage all of two times), I would have been willing to settle for any old conventional car with a good paint job that looked nice.

Legitimate 5 seat SUV with great cargo capacity? Excellent. (no comment today on rear trunk flooring drama). Publicly traded company whose stock price increase paid for my Model X? OK. That's counts a little bit too.

I just plain get so much fun out of my 5 seat Model X, its astonishing acceleration, and have acclimated so quickly to Supercharging, that I am thoroughly enjoying the whole experience.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

I once had a girlfriend with a great sense of humor, who was lovely, very intelligent, from a good family, and had great falcon wing doors.
Oops. No, no. I meant she had great legs. There is always a catch, always a hook, after the basics are all in order, that seals the deal. With Julie, it was her legs. They were perfect.

And that reveals the truth about the sole reason I decided to buy a Model X: falcon wing doors.
I was too young and too penniless in 1954 to buy a Mercedes 300 SL Gull Wing Coup. Every car I have ever owned was just a car, except of course for my fist car: a used 1968 VW Beetle. DeLorean? Yuck. Tacky. No thanks. Maserati? Porsches? Who needs them? Model S? Not interested. My wife sold hers after a year. Model X 6 seat and 7 seat configurations and monoposts? Weird and clumsy.

I like those unique Model X doors. The hook is everything. I like the way they operate, I like they way they look, I like what a surprise they are, and they are just pure fun for grown-ups, owners, strangers in parking lots, and kids. The supporting basics for the Model X were long range electric power and attractive design, but if not for the "hook" of those gull wings reinvented as falcon wings, and of course free supercharging for life ( I have used the 50 amp circuit breaker in my garage all of two times), I would have been willing to settle for any old conventional car with a good paint job that looked nice.

Legitimate 5 seat SUV with great cargo capacity? Excellent. (no comment today on rear trunk flooring drama). Publicly traded company whose stock price increase paid for my Model X? OK. That's counts a little bit too.

I just plain get so much fun out of my 5 seat Model X, its astonishing acceleration, and have acclimated so quickly to Supercharging, that I am thoroughly enjoying the whole experience.

If you knew my posting history, it would not surprise you: Falcon wings are pretty much the sole reason *I* decided to order a Model X. (Falcon Wings - Must have them, will absolutely hate them)

But I'm objective enough to consider the possibility that my (and your) subjective passion is just a small subset in a greater whole. I find it very likely.

As much as it would suck for me personally, I am convinced it would have been better for Tesla's seating quality (without all the in-house shenanigans the doors required), Model X versatility, Model X price, ramp-up speed and Tesla's business overall... that no such thing as falcon wings/monoposts would ever have been attempted.

My opinion, thus, is that you and me are an irrelevant minority in the potential market for Model X. Not necessarily a completely insignificant number, but small enough to be irrelevant compared to the alternative.

Had Tesla simply forgotten about the falcon wing doors, it is not too hard to imagine that all those seven seats would have folded and shipped in 2014 and Model X would be selling more than Model S. Twice as much.

Even Elon Musk conceded it was a car that probably should not have been built.

 

[Kincaid]

If you knew my posting history, it would not surprise you: Falcon wings are pretty much the sole reason *I* decided to order a Model X. (Falcon Wings - Must have them, will absolutely hate them)

But I'm objective enough to consider the possibility that my (and your) subjective passion is just a small subset in a greater whole. I find it very likely.

As much as it would suck for me personally, I am convinced it would have been better for Tesla's seating quality (without all the in-house shenanigans the doors required), Model X versatility, Model X price, ramp-up speed and Tesla's business overall... that no such thing as falcon wings/monoposts would ever have been attempted.

My opinion, thus, is that you and me are an irrelevant minority in the potential market for Model X. Not necessarily a completely insignificant number, but small enough to be irrelevant compared to the alternative.

Had Tesla simply forgotten about the falcon wing doors, it is not too hard to imagine that all those seven seats would have folded and shipped in 2014 and Model X would be selling more than Model S. Twice as much.

Even Elon Musk conceded it was a car that probably should not have been built.

Don't underestimate the popularity of your (and my) falcon wing thrills. Cars have morphed into such generic shapes, there are now few differences between the shape of a Maserati, Hondas, Ford Fusions, Jaguars, and the rest of the mundane crowd.

But wait, look at that Model X! Those doors are gracefully unfolding skyward like a bird about to take flight!!!

Whatever list of basic and practical needs the folks buying a Model X may have, every one of them gets hooked by those magical flying doors and their seeing eye signals that stop the doors flying whenever an intrusion enters their flight pattern. Those Mercedes Gull Wing beauties could never do that!

Are we all finally having design fun with cars again, and at the same time not blubbering around in gassy reciprocating piston dinosaurs? You bet we are.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Kincaid:

Even though I can't quite manage to push my hubris far enough to let go of my bleak estimations, I do appreciate the passion.

Getting to enjoy the weirdmobile that is the Model X is certainly a silver lining in all this mess.

 

[essmd]

Could not agree more...

But then try to travel out of town with that new _______ (fill-in-the-blank) EV that has no Supercharger equivalent, it will be years if ever before a competitive manufacturer can offer long range rapid charging anything close to the SC network.

Tesla ain't stupid, and realizes "if you build it, they will come" works for EV fans that want to leave their hometown driving range.

Weird how so new a company, first to make it a true success, yet they own the market on this aspect of EV ownership.

Too bad they don't apply this genius to everything, especially "fit and finish" on a premium priced vehicle with interior flaws, mismatching chrome alignment, etc.... Wonder how the Model 3 starting at half the price will compare in this aspect.

One more concern I have about the 5-seater... despite the same single A/C compressor, how effective will the A/C be for the 2nd row in this summer heat?? In a recent demo test, the single fan control on 11 resulted in a mild air flow out of the B-pillars, improved only by the closing of the front vents.

In comparison, the rear fan control in a 6/7 seater on just above medium result in very effective flow of air from the same vents...

Since nobody has yet owned a 5-seater in the summer heat, it will be interesting how it will go this summer, especially for all the 5-seaters in hot climates.

I blame Tesla's decision to bring seating in-house during the Model X development process. Their seat quality woes and other issues have clearly gone from mediocre to bad since that decision.

Tesla's interior quality was actually going upwards prior to that change, since then it has become - frankly - quite random. The five seater bench and its mismatching rear panels are a mess. The loss of seat ventilation apparently due to wear and tear issues another such. Loss of folding for the seven seater... and let's not even talk about the "let's just remove the middle seat" six seater... Amateur hour. And these have been spilling over to Model S as well, though less.

Maybe bringing something in-house was useful to get the falcon wing situation sorted out, but they should have kept that at a minimum. Now, if Tesla never tried to reach for those monoposts and falcon wings, but would have focused on quality interior in conventional ways, they would have been able to use traditional suppliers more who know their stuff...

All that said, I agree with the recent posters: what are you going do as a buyer... what else is there to do but settle at this time, if a long-range EV SUV is what you want? So, we settle. And then keep looking at that Audi and Jaguar coming out in the next year or two.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Could not agree more...

But then try to travel out of town with that new _______ (fill-in-the-blank) EV that has no Supercharger equivalent, it will be years if ever before a competitive manufacturer can offer long range rapid charging anything close to the SC network.

I of course agree that the still unique mix of large battery and long-range enabling charging network is a decided advantage for Tesla. Their focus on those strategic elements has been admirable, while their competition has fiddled their fingers. I would also add one thing: Tesla's constant software updates are a great, unique tool. Too bad Tesla has wasted their time on unnecessary diversions like the falcon wings and monoposts, but no doubt, those strategic advantages still remain...

That said, while most everyone can benefit (or one might even say need for large-scale adoption) from a large battery in an EV - just to get that daily flexibility without having to think about range - not everyone needs long-range driving itself. Personally, I use roadtrip charging perhaps four times a year (and where I live most Supercharger locations have CCS/CHAdeMO also anyway). In every one of those instances I could also alternatively take the family ICE. What I do need is a large battery for daily commutes, diversions and not necessarily having to charge daily.

For people who can charge at home or work, that is much of the time the only place they need. We make this comment on TMC all the time to note how often charging does not take any time, because it happens while we sleep or work. It is a great comment, because it is so true. Of course, this does not help some apartment dwellers or roadtripping sales warriors etc., but for a lot of people home or work can be 90-100% of their charging.

For that 0-10% of the time lack of Supercharging becomes just another compromise factor. I would not be surprised that some people would take a nicer back seat instead, some other comfort feature or a competing car design - or a color or a brand - they prefer more. After all, for 90-100% of the time that is more important to them than Supercharging. I'd wager the current problem is more the lack of any such alternatives to consider, than really the lack of charging options. (And I'm not even considering here the fact that third-party charging keeps evolving all the time as well.)

So, I am definitely in the market for Audi/Jaguar etc. electrics the minute they make a serious one, and I can see a lot of other people being too. Lack of Supercharging is not the biggest problem, the biggest problem is lack of compelling large-battery EVs from anyone besides Tesla.

Too bad they don't apply this genius to everything, especially "fit and finish" on a premium priced vehicle with interior flaws, mismatching chrome alignment, etc.... Wonder how the Model 3 starting at half the price will compare in this aspect.

Just on Monday saw a brand-new looking facelift Model S that still had the mis-aligned side window chrome that my 2014 car has. That would not happen on an Audi, not for years anyway, that's for sure...

One more concern I have about the 5-seater... despite the same single A/C compressor, how effective will the A/C be for the 2nd row in this summer heat?? In a recent demo test, the single fan control on 11 resulted in a mild air flow out of the B-pillars, improved only by the closing of the front vents.

In comparison, the rear fan control in a 6/7 seater on just above medium result in very effective flow of air from the same vents...

Since nobody has yet owned a 5-seater in the summer heat, it will be interesting how it will go this summer, especially for all the 5-seaters in hot climates.

Indeed, that is one of the issues of this move: five seater is clearly the preferred choice of people with dogs. Yet they can not get trunk ventilation. Everyone knows how hot the Model S jumpseats can get and I guess that is quite comparable to the Model X five-seater... Tesla could have at least unbundled the third-row AC booster/ventilation from the seating configuration by making it included in the 6/7 seater and a price option for the five-seater, but no...

Personally, I prefer the practicality compromises of the six seater compared to the visual and functional downgrade of the five-seater. Model X is a beautiful car and the bench, as it stands and ships, just doesn't quite mesh with it all for me. But its capacity of course is very good. It is a rather big trade-off, no doubt, whichever way you go.

 

[Vitold]

I of course agree that the still unique mix of large battery and long-range enabling charging network is a decided advantage for Tesla. Their focus on those strategic elements has been admirable, while their competition has fiddled their fingers. I would also add one thing: Tesla's constant software updates are a great, unique tool. Too bad Tesla has wasted their time on unnecessary diversions like the falcon wings and monoposts, but no doubt, those strategic advantages still remain...

That said, while most everyone can benefit (or one might even say need for large-scale adoption) from a large battery in an EV - just to get that daily flexibility without having to think about range - not everyone needs long-range driving itself. Personally, I use roadtrip charging perhaps four times a year (and where I live most Supercharger locations have CCS/CHAdeMO also anyway). In every one of those instances I could also alternatively take the family ICE. What I do need is a large battery for daily commutes, diversions and not necessarily having to charge daily.

For people who can charge at home or work, that is much of the time the only place they need. We make this comment on TMC all the time to note how often charging does not take any time, because it happens while we sleep or work. It is a great comment, because it is so true. Of course, this does not help some apartment dwellers or roadtripping sales warriors etc., but for a lot of people home or work can be 90-100% of their charging.

For that 0-10% of the time lack of Supercharging becomes just another compromise factor. I would not be surprised that some people would take a nicer back seat instead, some other comfort feature or a competing car design - or a color or a brand - they prefer more. After all, for 90-100% of the time that is more important to them than Supercharging. I'd wager the current problem is more the lack of any such alternatives to consider, than really the lack of charging options. (And I'm not even considering here the fact that third-party charging keeps evolving all the time as well.)

So, I am definitely in the market for Audi/Jaguar etc. electrics the minute they make a serious one, and I can see a lot of other people being too. Lack of Supercharging is not the biggest problem, the biggest problem is lack of compelling large-battery EVs from anyone besides Tesla.



Just on Monday saw a brand-new looking facelift Model S that still had the mis-aligned side window chrome that my 2014 car has. That would not happen on an Audi, not for years anyway, that's for sure...



Indeed, that is one of the issues of this move: five seater is clearly the preferred choice of people with dogs. Yet they can not get trunk ventilation. Everyone knows how hot the Model S jumpseats can get and I guess that is quite comparable to the Model X five-seater... Tesla could have at least unbundled the third-row AC booster/ventilation from the seating configuration by making it included in the 6/7 seater and a price option for the five-seater, but no...

Personally, I prefer the practicality compromises of the six seater compared to the visual and functional downgrade of the five-seater. Model X is a beautiful car and the bench, as it stands and ships, just doesn't quite mesh with it all for me. But its capacity of course is very good. It is a rather big trade-off, no doubt, whichever way you go.

Sorry for short reply, just quickly, two data points that conflict with your beliefs:

People want versality. Just like folding seats that are only used few times a year - SC are there when you need them.

Also, it has been argument of all major car manufacturers that people don't drive far, on average. Yet, all are announcing EV that offer 200 mile range because it is what people want. In addition, colder climates cut range in half.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Sorry for short reply, just quickly, two data points that conflict with your beliefs:

People want versality. Just like folding seats that are only used few times a year - SC are there when you need them.

Also, it has been argument of all major car manufacturers that people don't drive far, on average. Yet, all are announcing EV that offer 200 mile range because it is what people want. In addition, colder climates cut range in half.

But that's just the thing: There has not yet been a Tesla alternative that offers both sufficient range and sufficient versatility. (Before Bolt anyway.)

Very few people want a 100 mile EV because it means constant compromise, stress and planning. And as you say, cold weather cuts the range. Simply being unable to plug in one day can be a problem. But when we get to 200-300 miles, then it become sufficient for many people to just forget about range and charge while at home/work some days, not even all days. I speculated that covers 90-100% of their driving for a lot of people.

The greatest versatility Tesla offers is in their large battery. That's the daily versatility for most people. For most Tesla owners outside of California and London, I would wager Superchargers are only for roadtrips, they are simply rare and placed in such a manner. I've owned a Tesla soon three years and Supercharged I think six times. Not all people take roadtrips, or take them sufficiently often for it to be a major concern - especially for, say, a second car in the family. But again, that large battery for daily versatility, that matters every day.

I completely concede people want folding seats, though. I am not disputing that in any way. And of course I agree Superchargers are a significant benefit in selecting a Tesla. But once those large-battery alternatives start popping up from other manufacturers, those for whom outside of home charging is not a constant requirement I expect will start looking at the competition very seriously - because the competition is expected to have other benefits people like, such as more versatile interior options.

When buying - say - that family hauler for school, soccer practice and the grocery store, the equation is quite different. Supercharging may not count very high up in that - things like great trunk management and seating options may be more important.

 

[vandacca]

...
I completely concede people want folding seats, though. I am not disputing that in any way. And of course I agree Superchargers are a significant benefit in selecting a Tesla. But once those large-battery alternatives start popping up from other manufacturers, those for whom outside of home charging is not a constant requirement I expect will start looking at the competition very seriously - because the competition is expected to have other benefits people like, such as more versatile interior options....

I used to think this way (other manufactures will come on board with EVs), but have become quite cynical as of late.

Firstly, if it wasn't for Tesla, the EV landscape would be even more grim, since no manufacturer has shown any market-leading initiative to put out EVs (which would hurt their lucrative ICE sales). They all seem to build the absolute minimum required by state laws, and nothing more.

Secondly, Tesla has thoroughly thought out and designed a really efficient solution (but the trimmings around the implementation leave something more to be desired). I highly doubt that existing manufacturers will implement a solution as good as Tesla anytime soon. Their first solution will likely pale in comparison to Tesla's design that has been in constant evolution for the past 6 years.

Thirdly, SuperChargers. No other manufacturers has anything yet. The smartest thing they could do is partner with Tesla and share the SuperCharger network.

So, my expectations from existing manufactures is a below-par implementation. I'd be more interested to hear what other new start-ups do, but they have their own issues that I'll leave for another post...

 

[AnxietyRanger]

I used to think this way (other manufactures will come on board with EVs), but have become quite cynical as of late.

Firstly, if it wasn't for Tesla, the EV landscape would be even more grim, since no manufacturer has shown any market-leading initiative to put out EVs (which would hurt their lucrative ICE sales). They all seem to build the absolute minimum required by state laws, and nothing more.

Secondly, Tesla has thoroughly thought out and designed a really efficient solution (but the trimmings around the implementation leave something more to be desired). I highly doubt that existing manufacturers will implement a solution as good as Tesla anytime soon. Their first solution will likely pale in comparison to Tesla's design that has been in constant evolution for the past 6 years.

Thirdly, SuperChargers. No other manufacturers has anything yet. The smartest thing they could do is partner with Tesla and share the SuperCharger network.

So, my expectations from existing manufactures is a below-par implementation. I'd be more interested to hear what other new start-ups do, but they have their own issues that I'll leave for another post...

Those trimmings (where Tesla is performing rather poorly) matter - they matter a lot to some people. See e.g. this thread: Model XMV Mini Van

Now, it is obvious that Tesla kickstarted a dormant industry that the ICE markers would have rather forgotten about. That will always be an achievement of Tesla. But clearly the ICE industry has been spooked into taking the EV much more seriously (EPA and the dieselgate are another party to thank for this). As an armchair historian, Tesla will always get their respect from me. As a car buyer, what happens next may be different.

The thing is, Tesla makes a good (I would say excellent, but... Pack Performance and Launch Mode Limits) EV drivetrain, with innovative software approach and an excellent, proprietary charging network, and wraps it all into a couple of mediocre automobiles with lackluster sales and service network (more so depending on your location).

But what happens when the others finally make even a mediocre large battery EV, wrapped into an excellent automobile - complemented by a mature sales and service network? I do think that will change some things. First of all, not all people want to make the exact same compromises, so for those who long-range driving is a rare need and the best 0-60 is not demanded, a familiar brand with familiar features, with large enough battery to handle daily driving with home charging a couple of times a week, shopped and serviced at a location near you, may suddenly seem very enticing.

For someone whose main purpose for the car is driving between the house and the soccer field, that vacuum cleaner integrated in the back seat may be more important than Ludicrous mode, Falcon Wings and Superchargers.

The startups are interesting too, of course, but they are prone to having many of the issues Tesla is tackling with. Some great innovation may come from there, a but a good-enough EV wrapped into an excellent car, that, I expect will come from the large manufacturers first. And I think after a few years of Tesla craziness, I might be in the business for some familiarity. I doubt I'm alone.

Tesla will of course improve their game on all this as well, or so we hope (I guess many hoped they would have already, instead they took some steps backwards). It will be interesting to see how it all plays out.

I am seriously looking at that Jaguar I-Pace. If the stars align correctly timing-wise, I may swap my Model 3 reservation to that.

 

[vandacca]

Those trimmings (where Tesla is performing rather poorly) matter - they matter a lot to some people. See e.g. this thread: Model XMV Mini Van

Now, it is obvious that Tesla kickstarted a dormant industry that the ICE markers would have rather forgotten about. That will always be an achievement of Tesla. But clearly the ICE industry has been spooked into taking the EV much more seriously (EPA and the dieselgate are another party to thank for this). As an armchair historian, Tesla will always get their respect from me. As a car buyer, what happens next may be different.

The thing is, Tesla makes a good (I would say excellent, but... Pack Performance and Launch Mode Limits) EV drivetrain, with innovative software approach and an excellent, proprietary charging network, and wraps it all into a couple of mediocre automobiles with lackluster sales and service network (more so depending on your location).

But what happens when the others finally make even a mediocre large battery EV, wrapped into an excellent automobile - complemented by a mature sales and service network? I do think that will change some things. First of all, not all people want to make the exact same compromises, so for those who long-range driving is a rare need and the best 0-60 is not demanded, a familiar brand with familiar features, with large enough battery to handle daily driving with home charging a couple of times a week, shopped and serviced at a location near you, may suddenly seem very enticing.

For someone whose main purpose for the car is driving between the house and the soccer field, that vacuum cleaner integrated in the back seat may be more important than Ludicrous mode, Falcon Wings and Superchargers.

The startups are interesting too, of course, but they are prone to having many of the issues Tesla is tackling with. Some great innovation may come from there, a but a good-enough EV wrapped into an excellent car, that, I expect will come from the large manufacturers first. And I think after a few years of Tesla craziness, I might be in the business for some familiarity. I doubt I'm alone.

Tesla will of course improve their game on all this as well, or so we hope (I guess many hoped they would have already, instead they took some steps backwards). It will be interesting to see how it all plays out.

I am seriously looking at that Jaguar I-Pace. If the stars align correctly timing-wise, I may swap my Model 3 reservation to that.

I have learned in life that the best solution doesn't always win and good marketing can make a mediocre product kill better products (Excel vs Lotus123, GoPro vs Contour, Word vs WordPerfect, etc.). Also, being first in industry is usually a death sentence (Contour, Microsoft Tablets, RIM, etc.). So I guess anything is still possible.

However, Elon is a tenacious and smart individual, and if anyone can over-come these market forces, surely he can? And to make things more difficult, he'll attempt that without a marketing team...

 

[AnxietyRanger]

@vandacca

I'm not necessarily concerned for Tesla. I'm more optimistic about the rest of the market, than concerned for Tesla.

Anyway, Tesla has no premium competition in 2017. Ironically, it had more in 2016 when Audi still sold those million a pop R8 e-trons.

As I've said on several occasions (and received derision from the usual suspects), I expect this to change in 2018. The Audi e-tron quattro and Jaguar I-Pace seem like the strongest contenders. However, those are premium offerings while Tesla is moving its attention to volume...

So, I think they will expand the market more than take away from Tesla. Potential volume sellers like Bolt and Volkswagens are more of a question mark as they more directly could affect Model 3, but also their ability to ship in volume is a complete unknown.

But many of the people who used to regular places like TMC (the high-end buyers) may well be finding their next premium EV elsewhere starting in 2018. We shall see how many.

I have learned in life that the best solution doesn't always win and good marketing can make a mediocre product kill better products (Excel vs Lotus123, GoPro vs Contour, Word vs WordPerfect, etc.). Also, being first in industry is usually a death sentence (Contour, Microsoft Tablets, RIM, etc.). So I guess anything is still possible.

I guess part of my point is, Tesla is not very good at making a premium car or even a versatile high-end family car (though Model S gets much closer than Model X). Tesla is not necessarily "the best" once the competition arrives, it is quite likely one compromise solution vs. another different compromise solution...

 

[Kincaid]

beths11 will be gratified to know that I have a report that is actually on topic for this forum for 5 seat Model X deliveries (started by beths11): I have a friend who is taking delivery of his new 5 seat Model X at the Fremont factory on March 29. I am driving him there, and will be looking to stir up some trouble when I inspect the cargo area of his new 5 seat Model X if the cargo area of my ancient December 22, 2016 Model X has not been updated by then. Reports will follow.

Now onto the off topic recent dialogue of AnxietyRanger.

@vandacca

I guess part of my point is, Tesla is not very good at making a premium car or even a versatile high-end family car (though Model S gets much closer than Model X). Tesla is not necessarily "the best" once the competition arrives, it is quite likely one compromise solution vs. another different compromise solution...

Enter the perspective of Alfred North Whitehead on the "fearlessness of revision":

"The major advances in civilization are processes which all but wreck the societies in which they occur"

If ever there were a manufacturing company that embodied Whitehead's comment, it has been Tesla. Audi, Ford, Jaguar, GM, and all the rest, had 100 years to switch to electric motors, and they spun their wheels, propped up the noxious oil industry, unloaded some really bad stuff on the driving world, and peddled timid and really ugly hybrid and electric vehicles that no one who craved a real car wanted to buy.

Tesla stepped in and obliterated business as usual: they literally electrified the automotive world; they dumped the anti-consumer concept of selling cars through creepy dealerships that traded in unpleasant sales gimmicks and deceptively negotiated pricing; they dumped the tacky automotive advertising that was worse than tobacco advertising; and they created a network of superchargers to charge Tesla vehicles for free. They also created a car whose acceleration obliterated anything reciprocating piston engines could produce.

The elegant truth that Tesla vehicles are manufactured in an automotive plant that spiraled into bankruptcy while producing GM and Toyota vehicles should be lost on no one.

So, here's the obvious news relating to the lush and superbly appointed interior embellishments of some ICE vehicles that outshine the interior appointments of Tesla vehicles: the vast distance of the learning curve over which Ford, GM, BMW, VW and the other slugs must travel to reach the electric motor and battery technology that Tesla produced in 3 years is infinitely greater than the distance Tesla will have to travel in order to refine the interior of its vehicles. Those ICE makers have a long and bumpy road to traverse. Does anyone doubt Tesla's fearless ability to refine the decorative elements of its vehicles now that the heavy design lifting has been mastered?

Add that simple fact to the likelihood that many of those ICE car manufacturers will be buying batteries to produce their first generation electric vehicles from a company called Tesla, and you may well embrace the formula that has worked for me: don't just buy shares in the car manufacturer named Tesla, buy shares of the battery company named Tesla.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Great conversation @Kincaid, I appreciate it!

Add that simple fact to the likelihood that many of those ICE car manufacturers will be buying batteries to produce their first generation electric vehicles from a company called Tesla, and you may well embrace the formula that has worked for me: don't just buy shares in the car manufacturer named Tesla, buy shares of the battery company named Tesla.

In general, one of the challenges I've found using TMC these past years as an owners' forum is that much of the time I'm not sure if it is a Tesla owners' forum, or a TSLA one. At the very least the ever-present investor sentiment is much higher here than it is on your average automotive brand owners' forum.

In that vein, why would it even matter where those batteries in an Audi or Jaguar come, for the buyer of the car?

If ever there were a manufacturing company that embodied Whitehead's comment, it has been Tesla. Audi, Ford, Jaguar, GM, and all the rest, had 100 years to switch to electric motors, and they spun their wheels, propped up the noxious oil industry, unloaded some really bad stuff on the driving world, and peddled timid and really ugly hybrid and electric vehicles that no one who craved a real car wanted to buy.

Certainly. Tesla will, in my books and those of many - hopefully history included, always have the honor of transforming an industry. Similar to Apple disrupting the smartphone industry. (I'm not all that into iPhone though, as a parallel, I find the competition more interesting.)

But disrupt it Tesla has - and now others have woken up and are following suit. And those others have certain benefits that Tesla does not possess, from the car buyer's perspective.

Does anyone doubt Tesla's fearless ability to refine the decorative elements of its vehicles now that the heavy design lifting has been mastered?

I would not necessarily have doubted Tesla's interior progress in 2014, but after the nose dive of 2015 and Model X, frankly I think we have plenty of reason to be cautious about Tesla's progress on this front. It just does not seem to be a priority for them. Will they eventually learn? Of course. Hopefully that Volvo interior hire lights a new fire in them.

But at the same time, I am not sure their commitment to the versatility of interiors will ever be there (at least in a year or few). It would take a completely different company mindset to not just improve quality and decorations, but come up with something like an Audi A8L or, say, that Chrysler Pacifica, in interior comforts and features. That "coachbuilding" is a talent of its own, not just ability to wrap up the same-o-same-o in a nicer guise.

So, here's the obvious news relating to the lush and superbly appointed interior embellishments of some ICE vehicles that outshine the interior appointments of Tesla vehicles: the vast distance of the learning curve over which Ford, GM, BMW, VW and the other slugs must travel to reach the electric motor and battery technology that Tesla produced in 3 years is infinitely greater than the distance Tesla will have to travel in order to refine the interior of its vehicles. Those ICE makers have a long and bumpy road to traverse.

I agree the others have a vast learning curve in making EVs. For volume models, the battery acquisition is also a very reasonable question mark. But I think they have also been learning and for those high-end models the battery availability is probably not going to be such a big issue by next year - that is IMO where I expect Tesla to first start bleeding customers or at least market expanding outside of Tesla.

When someone makes a good-enough EV with the appointments expected of a great premium car, I know I will be interested. I doubt I am alone. I find it quite plausible Audi and Jaguar will get there first, before Tesla gets their interior game together. Maybe Tesla will be able to match the quality, but will they - or will they want to - match the interior functionality and versatility?

The customer gets spoiled rotten with choices and features when buying non-Tesla high-end cars, while of course compromising on the drivetrain. With Tesla we do get the best on the market EV drivetrain and innovative software platform (and weirdmobile doors on the Model X), but beyond that get a very basic car with limited customization, so it is a different compromise. If and when someone combines these two opposites in a combination, it will be interesting.

Sadly, since 2015 Tesla has not been adding to interior functionality or even quality, mostly just taking away from it... When I bought my Model S in 2014, I thought this was a reasonable baseline for a new company like Tesla and they would be improving on that. Looking at where we are in 2017, frankly, it is such a mixed bag interior-wise I'm not sure I could call it an improvement... (Seat ventilation taken way, removing trim options to minimum, all sorts of seating debacles, removing Model X trunk cover - the rails were removed in late-2016 cars as a final blow, mixed-quality five-seater, mismatching panel colors etc.)

Remember the optimism we all have for the five-seater in early 2016? Okay okay, we thought, Tesla had to rush-launch the 7/6 seater because of the folding issues and Model X delays forced their hand, but the five-seater... that will be their chance to do it right and show what they've got! They may even bring out folding monoposts for the 7/6 seater!

Then they took a year... and what do we get instead, a very mediocre bench (that no way visually fits in with the rest of the car) with shoddy workmanship, missing and color mismatched rear paneling installed in random ways... Seriously? And the 7/6 seater is still the same-o-same-o. Oh, except Tesla changed the rear paneling a little, so their rear/trunk winter mats won't quite fit anymore and they haven't released new winter mats... I stand by my earlier opinion: amateur hour.

That interior overhaul can not come quickly enough for Tesla.

 

[vandacca]

@AnxietyRanger, one thing that may make things more interesting is price competition. It is entirely possible that other EV manufacturers may not be able to compete with Tesla on price alone. Tesla currently appears to have a very healthy margin on each vehicle sold and they have the GigaFactory that should produce the best batteries at 30% lower price than the competition.

If Tesla also decides to lower their margins a little to better compete, they may be able to offer vehicles at a price point where other manufacturers just can't compete. I think there are still some dials that Tesla can turn to change their competitive advantage if they need to.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

@AnxietyRanger, one thing that may make things more interesting is price competition. It is entirely possible that other EV manufacturers may not be able to compete with Tesla on price alone. Tesla currently appears to have a very healthy margin on each vehicle sold and they have the GigaFactory that should produce the best batteries at 30% lower price than the competition.

If Tesla also decides to lower their margins a little to better compete, they may be able to offer vehicles at a price point where other manufacturers just can't compete. I think there are still some dials that Tesla can turn to change their competitive advantage if they need to.

Definitely possible, the battery manufacturing benefit is of course a real one. It will be interesting to see how much of a difference it makes on the premium level (e.g. Audis and Porsches). I am sure it will make a difference on the volume level at least initially (e.g. Bolts and Volkswagens of this world).

On the other hand, the current signs are that the big auto competition is talking price-points beneath Tesla and with history to back up price point claims - and Tesla has been all talk and very little to show for lowering theirs, instead Tesla prices have gone up all the time. Maybe this will change once they have to change it or maybe they can't?

Those big manufacturers may have other volume and pricing benefits also working for them, instead of only against them, when they really put their minds to it...

We shall see.

 

[Kincaid]

Very disappointing update on 5 seat Model X cargo flooring panels woes:

I received these comments included in an email from the service manager at the Tesla Service Center in Sunnyvale, virtually the same reply from the Service Manager at the Santa Clara Service Center, and a nearly identical response from my Delivery Specialist at the Fremont Factory:

"We unfortunately are still working on that refreshed version and unfortunately don’t have an ETA."

That was surprising news. We need to get cargo flooring pictures from someone who is picking up a brand new, March delivery, 5 seat Model X. I suspect that the used inventory "new" 5 seat Model X vehicles that have been used for the Airstream Road Show are outfitted with jury rigged panels, and there is no sight anywhere of the "redesigned", "refreshed" flooring panels in any car.

 

[jgrgnt]

I'm taking delivery of my 5-seater within a week. Will post pictures of the area behind the seats.

 

[Jrogville]

Very disappointing update on 5 seat Model X cargo flooring panels woes:

I received these comments included in an email from the service manager at the Tesla Service Center in Sunnyvale, virtually the same reply from the Service Manager at the Santa Clara Service Center, and a nearly identical response from my Delivery Specialist at the Fremont Factory:

"We unfortunately are still working on that refreshed version and unfortunately don’t have an ETA."

That was surprising news. We need to get cargo flooring pictures from someone who is picking up a brand new, March delivery, 5 seat Model X. I suspect that the used inventory "new" 5 seat Model X vehicles that have been used for the Airstream Road Show are outfitted with jury rigged panels, and there is no sight anywhere of the "redesigned", "refreshed" flooring panels in any car.

Sorry to hear that, Kincaid. I had hoped that by now these issues would have been straightened out. I was thinking the same as you that we need input from someone that has just received their 5-seater recently.

It doesn't relieve your problem, but I'm hoping that at least they are shipping completed models and just don't have enough supply to take care of the previous uncompleted orders. I put off my Model X order and thought that if would be safe by now to get a complete car, but it looks like that might not be the case.

Very disappointing. How could they have shipped some many cars, and continue to ship them, without resolving an issue that affects the main attraction to the 5-seat model, which is its cargo utility. I know what their motivation is, of course, but it doesn't excuse it.

 

[Jrogville]

I'm taking delivery of my 5-seater within a week. Will post pictures of the area behind the seats.

Thanks, jgrgnt. I'm looking forward to that.