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Model X 90kWh battery pack degradation

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As you noticed with the 11% to 2% drop, there are *not always miles below zero*, particularly if your pack has bad balance. It's often the case that there are more miles, but on an out of balance pack zero can really mean zero, or 2% can mean zero. When trying to balance a pack, assuming you can drive after zero is rolling the dice on needing to wait by the road for a flatbed, and it doesn't do you any good in terms of balance to get that low. It's also not really necessary - more on that later.
yeah i read some horror stories here that ppl either didn't have the buffer or car died with few % showing so im hesitant to try, but i might somewhere around the known place to charge...

It's far more damaging to leave the pack at 0% than at 100%. If you follow this advice, don't sweat the time at 100%, it's no big deal even for a few days. Do charge as soon as possible after getting down close to 0%, as if there is any chance the car sits and gets down to the bottom of the buffer it's a big problem. If the car ends up not getting charged for a while at 0% it can do serious long term damage to the battery, particularly if the pack is significantly out of balance. Time at 100% accelerates calendar aging but even a few weeks spent at that level is very little aging in terms of the overall life of the pack. If you will drive within a few days, no need to run the pack down after charging it to 100%, just take care of it with your next drive.
maybe for non-balanced pack but for good pack i disagree.
my car was wrecked n came fully dead. it sat for 3mo at auction. i don't know for sure when it died but good guess it was a long while.
after charging it n driving it for 7k mi now, it seems fine.
i think the buffer does its job saving the pack when its at 0
Even just daily charging to 90% and occasionally taking the car down to 20% will give the system far more data to work with on current SOC of individual cells.
Not in my experience...
I did do 90-20(occasionally to 15%) for 7k miles n SMT always showed 74kWh
Only after i did 95% few times it re-adjusted

FYI, on the fourth 95% charge, MCU showed a warning that charging above 90 will degrade battery.
Curious if there's a warning going very low...
 
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maybe for non-balanced pack but for good pack i disagree.
my car was wrecked n came fully dead. it sat for 3mo at auction. i don't know for sure when it died but good guess it was a long while.
after charging it n driving it for 7k mi now, it seems fine.
i think the buffer does its job saving the pack when its at 0

Not in my experience...
I did do 90-20(occasionally to 15%) for 7k miles n SMT always showed 74kWh
Only after i did 95% few times it re-adjusted

FYI, on the fourth 95% charge, MCU showed a warning that charging above 90 will degrade battery.
Curious if there's a warning going very low...
The car does go to sleep pretty well when it's down near the buffer zone, but why play with fire? There are reasons the car has a buffer zone in the first place to protect the battery pack. The Roadster had a smaller buffer and bricking was way more common.

There is a message for multiple back to back charges above 90% which reads 'Charging repeatedly beyond daily driving needs will shorter battery life. Would you like to lower the charge limit?' That doesn't happen the first or second time you go over 90%.

If you stop the car at a low state of charge, it immediately pops up a message letting you know to charge now. It reads 'Battery charge level too low. Vehicle consumes battery power while idle. Charge now to ensure vehicle will start and avoid potential battery damage.' You don't have to go down low multiple times to get the message.

A single charge to 100%, even leaving the vehicle sitting at that level for a few days, is no big deal. Excursions to a low percentage are also not a huge deal. Don't do them if they are completely unneded, of course, but also don't think it's like the car is going to be permanently damaged if you leave it more than a few hours. The pack does extra balancing when you go over 90% so it's worth doing from time to time, with enough time on charge to really let it get the balance rolling. It can take an hour or more at the end of the charge if you haven't gone to 100% in a while.

However if I have to pick between leaving the car at 100% or leaving it at 0% I will pick 100% every time, if nothing else because idle power will have it down to 90% within a couple of weeks even with the settings in the most efficient mode.
 
The car does go to sleep pretty well when it's down near the buffer zone, but why play with fire? There are reasons the car has a buffer zone in the first place to protect the battery pack. The Roadster had a smaller buffer and bricking was way more common.
Agree. Sometimes u have no choice like cars sitting at auctions or in airports when ur on vacation...

There is a message for multiple back to back charges above 90% which reads 'Charging repeatedly beyond daily driving needs will shorter battery life. Would you like to lower the charge limit?' That doesn't happen the first or second time you go over 90%.
Correct. It was like 4th time for me.
If you stop the car at a low state of charge, it immediately pops up a message letting you know to charge now. It reads 'Battery charge level too low. Vehicle consumes battery power while idle. Charge now to ensure vehicle will start and avoid potential battery damage.' You don't have to go down low multiple times to get the message.
Thanks, thats what i was wondering about. So Tesla did cover this with a warning.

A single charge to 100%, even leaving the vehicle sitting at that level for a few days, is no big deal. Excursions to a low percentage are also not a huge deal. Don't do them if they are completely unneded, of course, but also don't think it's like the car is going to be permanently damaged if you leave it more than a few hours. The pack does extra balancing when you go over 90% so it's worth doing from time to time, with enough time on charge to really let it get the balance rolling. It can take an hour or more at the end of the charge if you haven't gone to 100% in a while.

However if I have to pick between leaving the car at 100% or leaving it at 0% I will pick 100% every time, if nothing else because idle power will have it down to 90% within a couple of weeks even with the settings in the most efficient mode.
Agree as well :)
 
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Agree. Sometimes u have no choice like cars sitting at auctions or in airports when ur on vacation...


Correct. It was like 4th time for me.

Thanks, thats what i was wondering about. So Tesla did cover this with a warning.


Agree as well :)
Now that I think of it I have seen the following.

“You are almost too far from known charging locations.”
 
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That said when your battery starts to get real old you'll start to see sudden drops while driving (I had 11% but it jumped to 2%), when you start to experience these issues you can be a little afraid of driving to zero.
What about drops after parked?
So yesterday i had a full day of errands n decided to drain the car down as much as i can
Came home with 14% (showed 3.38V)
1674583662461.png


Then about 1hr later i looked at my app n was surprised with 9% only ??
Went back to the car, indeed it was but still 3.38V.. what gives? should i be worried??
Didn't screenshot BMS but i saw Module 9 being ~40mV lower then others

1674583835549.png


BMS got some learning to do 😅
 
I generally like the angle of this advice, particularly if someone regularly spends time with the pack between 80-30% for long calendar life. I want to add some background and nuance.

As you noticed with the 11% to 2% drop, there are *not always miles below zero*, particularly if your pack has bad balance. It's often the case that there are more miles, but on an out of balance pack zero can really mean zero, or 2% can mean zero. When trying to balance a pack, assuming you can drive after zero is rolling the dice on needing to wait by the road for a flatbed, and it doesn't do you any good in terms of balance to get that low. It's also not really necessary - more on that later.

It's far more damaging to leave the pack at 0% than at 100%. If you follow this advice, don't sweat the time at 100%, it's no big deal even for a few days. Do charge as soon as possible after getting down close to 0%, as if there is any chance the car sits and gets down to the bottom of the buffer it's a big problem. If the car ends up not getting charged for a while at 0% it can do serious long term damage to the battery, particularly if the pack is significantly out of balance. Time at 100% accelerates calendar aging but even a few weeks spent at that level is very little aging in terms of the overall life of the pack. If you will drive within a few days, no need to run the pack down after charging it to 100%, just take care of it with your next drive.

For the underpinning concept that causes the balance errors, look at the graph on this page: Silicon Lightworks
Note that Tesla uses the battery between about 3% and 98% on that graph, or 2.85v to 4.15v. (more info here What's the battery voltage from 0% to 100%? )

See how the curve is very flat between about 85% and 25%? That's what confuses the BMS. If you always charge to 80% and never get below 30% your BMS will have a very hard time maintaining long term accuracy. There's just not much voltage difference to measure, so it's stuck counting power in and power out without an absolute reference. Even just daily charging to 90% and occasionally taking the car down to 20% will give the system far more data to work with on current SOC of individual cells.

Personally I would not aim for 0% to rebalance an out of balance pack. Going that low is a harder cycle than a shallower cycle, and cycle life is a significant part of pack aging. Even down to 15% is plenty close enough to the bottom for the BMS to get a proper reading, assuming you've been going to 90% or higher at least every once in a while. I charge to 100% before any trip long enough for more than one Supercharger stop, and get the balance for free that way, because good Supercharger stops are often in the 5-10% range at arrival.

With regular charges to 90% and ordinary use, my pack has remained in excellent balance with below average degradation and very consistent measures of capacity. If you don't want to think about balance ever again, just daily charge to 90% and take the car down below 15% from time to time. That's using these cars on easy mode. It won't get the absolute maximum life out of the pack, but it gets very close and it's simple. The Tesla software takes a lot of care to manage the details of the pack for you so that use in the Daily range and following on-screen warnings means you're taking pretty good care of the battery with little effort.

Although I generally agree with you, I would not leave my battery at 100% for more than even a few hours. The development of dendrites has been shown to be most aggressive at 100%. And much more aggressive there. That would lead to degradation, and even bricking, of the pack much quicker than leaving it at what Tesla calls zero. That's actually, as I understand it, about 4%. Lithium-ion can sit for maybe a year at 4% without any significant damage.

For me, I'd be really careful about going to 100% and not using it within the next few hours. I also wouldn't trust that zero is actually zero. I've had it give me lots of extra miles, and never had it died before zero, but there certainly a lot of stories about people dying before zero as well. And, for exactly the reason you stated, the BMS cannot tell where the battery is unless you go down near zero quite a bit.
 
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does anyone know what zero is in terms of Voltage?
is it 3.2?

Reason i ask: i saw 3.38V at 9%, is it really gonna go down to 2.85 before car shuts off?
i was thinking to watch SMT to see how low i can actually go based on Voltage but i need to know when it will shut off
 
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Although I generally agree with you, I would not leave my battery at 100% for more than even a few hours. The development of dendrites has been shown to be most aggressive at 100%. And much more aggressive there. That would lead to degradation, and even bricking, of the pack much quicker than leaving it at what Tesla calls zero. That's actually, as I understand it, about 4%. Lithium-ion can sit for maybe a year at 4% without any significant damage.

For me, I'd be really careful about going to 100% and not using it within the next few hours. I also wouldn't trust that zero is actually zero. I've had it give me lots of extra miles, and never had it died before zero, but there certainly a lot of stories about people dying before zero as well. And, for exactly the reason you stated, the BMS cannot tell where the battery is unless you go down near zero quite a bit.
I would agree if Tesla's 100% indicated was actually 100%. It's 4.15V which is still very safe for the involved chemistries.
 
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I would agree if Tesla's 100% indicated was actually 100%. It's 4.15V which is still very safe for the involved chemistries.

It is true that Tesla keeps us from the top of the battery pack voltage. But still, it is the potential that causes the growth of dendrites. The higher your charge, the greater the development of dendrites. Obviously it tails off considerably when you're at 90% as opposed to 100%. But the point is that you're still developing them at a higher rate when your charges that high. The difference between what we would see as 90% of the Tesla pack and 50% is almost nothing. But above that it begins to climb rather rapidly.

That being the opinion of the battery wizards like those Tesla supports. Forget the guy's name right now, doctor in canada.
 
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If we assume a ten year battery pack lifespan ( a reasonable if perhaps shorter than real figure ), even a whole day is 0.03% of the time you're taking care of the battery. To me this says you have to do something particularly bad to have any noticeable impact. But hey, I'm not going to go to your house and force you to charge to 100%. I'm just someone with an opinion on the Internet.
 
That said when your battery starts to get real old you'll start to see sudden drops while driving (I had 11% but it jumped to 2%), when you start to experience these issues you can be a little afraid of driving to zero.
I learned this nugget in the field last week. I was less than two miles from the supercharger with around 3% when it instantly became 0 and forced an immediate pull over. I'm nearing 135K miles and this was the first time I've actually run out of charge.

So, I just got an ODB and started playing with the SMT app today. It appears my 90D now only has a "Nominal full pack" = 70.9 kWh.

Question - Is it worth looking at the data from the individual cell packs if you find your getting low on charge. Can you even see/predict if you are about to have an issue?
 
I learned this nugget in the field last week. I was less than two miles from the supercharger with around 3% when it instantly became 0 and forced an immediate pull over. I'm nearing 135K miles and this was the first time I've actually run out of charge.

So, I just got an ODB and started playing with the SMT app today. It appears my 90D now only has a "Nominal full pack" = 70.9 kWh.

Question - Is it worth looking at the data from the individual cell packs if you find your getting low on charge. Can you even see/predict if you are about to have an issue?
Just so you are aware if you are not. The 90kwh pack never had 90kwh. New, it only has 86Kwh and about 81kwh usable/nominal. Given time and mileage, 70kwh nominal is definitely expected compared to other "90kwh" pack.
 
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