Model X Autopilot Problem - Pretty Scary

[KZKZ]

For Drivin and X Yes, who complain about beta. Just think about it - your favorite auto makers who make there own versions of AP isn't even half as good as Tesla, but they don't call it as beta. Perhaps in software parlance they should be calling it as PoC or unit testing.

I think what you're missing is that other manufacturers chose not to make their semi-autonomous systems behave like a Level 3 system.

That's a choice on their part, not a technical limitation.

Tesla chose to implement common hardware in a way that every other manufacturer chose not to.

I think we can clearly see now which is the more responsible path.

 

[trils0n]

I think what you're missing is that other manufacturers chose not to make their semi-autonomous systems behave like a Level 3 system.

Tesla's system behaves as a level 2 system. Not sure where this level 3 stuff comes from. It is squarely in level 2, both in terms of capabilities and actual operation.

 

[KaiserSoze]

For those who worry and fret every time there is an incident involving AP, I have to ask... How many accidents do you think are occurring during the same time frame that DO NOT involve an AP system?

Elon has stated that the rate of airbag deployments is halved when using Autopilot. One must be careful with statistics, of course. You can't just count accidents when Autopilot is on or off, because most people engage Autopilot only in the safest situations. Best to compare the accident rates of Teslas with the feature to those without.

 

[KZKZ]

Tesla's system behaves as a level 2 system. Not sure where this level 3 stuff comes from. It is squarely in level 2, both in terms of capabilities and actual operation.

I believe AP behaves more like a Level 3, and so does Elon's wife!

 

[KZKZ]

Elon has stated that the rate of airbag deployments is halved when using Autopilot. One must be careful with statistics, of course. You can't just count accidents when Autopilot is on or off, because most people engage Autopilot only in the safest situations. Best to compare the accident rates of Teslas with the feature to those without.

The airbags didn't deploy in the fatal AP crash in Florida so agreed, statistics can be skewed for sure.

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

Tesla's system behaves as a level 2 system. Not sure where this level 3 stuff comes from. It is squarely in level 2, both in terms of capabilities and actual operation.

The media and how it presents autopilot is why. They did so being completely ignorant of what really constitutes a level 3 system. That with a level 3 you can HAND OFF all safety critical functions to the car. You can never do that with a Level 3.

In terms of actual functionality Tesla, MB, BMW, and likely a few others roughly do the same thing. The only thing different about the Tesla is it does it better, and doesn't nag you as much. That's really all it comes down to.

It's a weird situation where the Tesla has better functionality, but less sensor tech. If you look at the MB drive pilot system it has way more sensors. It's probably capable of a lot more if MB allowed it to be.

Everyone has their different approaches so it should be interesting to see how it all plays out.

 

[X Yes?]

I believe AP behaves more like a Level 3, and so does Elon's wife!

That's ex wife X2. She's adorable. I''m sure even Musk cringes when viewing this. A cynic would say he was trying to save on alimony.

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

I can't even imagine the conversation Elon had with his wife after that video appeared.

But, that's part of the problem. Is the way people view Autopilot isn't from a technical standpoint, but from a social media point of view.

Tesla doesn't do any traditional style advertising, and most of what we see is user stuff. Either people making their own commercials or posting things on youtube.

Even when they go to great lengths explaining what their doing (the whole don't try this at home) people still misconstrue it.

It can't be lost on anyone that the video of the Tesla driver sleeping at the wheel might be a fake, but people still talk about it as if it was completely totally factual. As if it happened with absolutely certainty.

 

[X Yes?]

I can't even imagine the conversation Elon had with his wife after that video appeared.

But, that's part of the problem. Is the way people view Autopilot isn't from a technical standpoint, but from a social media point of view.

Tesla doesn't do any traditional style advertising, and most of what we see is user stuff. Either people making their own commercials or posting things on youtube.

Even when they go to great lengths explaining what their doing (the whole don't try this at home) people still misconstrue it.

It can't be lost on anyone that the video of the Tesla driver sleeping at the wheel might be a fake, but people still talk about it as if it was completely totally factual. As if it happened with absolutely certainty.

Yep. It it's this kind of publicity that encourages texting, Harry Potter viewing, pretend sleeping, and other stupid shenanigans that endanger everyone on the road.

 

[stopcrazypp]

I believe AP behaves more like a Level 3, and so does Elon's wife!

Anyone can do the same in a level 2 system. That doesn't make it a Level 3. Here's someone leaving the seat empty in a Infiniti Q50S:

Note: Tesla immediately disabled this possibility when they found out someone did the same in a Tesla; AFAIK Inifiniti did nothing. Where is the outrage and finger pointing at Infiniti?

A level 3 system would be able to make decisions about changing lanes and making turns to reach a set destination (SAE describes this as the "tactical" aspects of driving). A Level 2 system is only able to keep the car at a certain speed and lane (the "operational" aspects of driving) and can't make decisions to change lanes and execute turns.

 

[KZKZ]

A level 3 system would be able to make decisions about changing lanes and making turns to reach a set destination (SAE describes this as the "tactical" aspects of driving). A Level 2 system is only able to keep the car at a certain speed and lane (the "operational" aspects of driving) and can't make decisions to change lanes and execute turns.

Making navigation and lane changing decisions is part of level 4, according to Federal Standards.

Full Self-Driving Automation (Level 4): The vehicle is designed to perform all safety-critical driving functions and monitor roadway conditions for an entire trip. Such a design anticipates that the driver will provide destination or navigation input, but is not expected to be available for control at any time during the trip. This includes both occupied and unoccupied vehicles.

 

[SR22pilot]

I think what you're missing is that other manufacturers chose not to make their semi-autonomous systems behave like a Level 3 system.

That's a choice on their part, not a technical limitation.

Tesla chose to implement common hardware in a way that every other manufacturer chose not to.

I think we can clearly see now which is the more responsible path.

In what way is Tesla really different? I really don't understand your comments. Have you seen this video from Hyundai?

 

[SR22pilot]

Elon has stated that the rate of airbag deployments is halved when using Autopilot. One must be careful with statistics, of course. You can't just count accidents when Autopilot is on or off, because most people engage Autopilot only in the safest situations. Best to compare the accident rates of Teslas with the feature to those without.

I have concerns over the statistics. The correct way to do this would be to compare miles driven on AP vs. miles not on AP on the same road segments and then look at airbag deployments. Another valid comparison might be accident rate for cars with AP vs. Tesla cars without.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Making navigation and lane changing decisions is part of level 4, according to Federal Standards.

Full Self-Driving Automation (Level 4): The vehicle is designed to perform all safety-critical driving functions and monitor roadway conditions for an entire trip. Such a design anticipates that the driver will provide destination or navigation input, but is not expected to be available for control at any time during the trip. This includes both occupied and unoccupied vehicles.

No, Level 4 is a system where the driver never needs to take control (as in a vehicle that does not even need controls at all other than inputting a destination). A level 3 vehicle would still be able to make turns and change lanes, but will not be able to handle all road conditions (such that it has to notify the driver to take over).

The SAE definition makes this more clear:
Level 2 Partial Automation: the driving mode-specific execution by one or more driver assistance systems of both steering and acceleration/ deceleration using information about the driving environment and with the expectation that the human driver perform all remaining aspects of the dynamic driving task.

Level 3 Conditional Automation: the driving mode-specific performance by an automated driving system of all aspects of the dynamic driving task with the expectation that the human driver will respond appropriately to a request to intervene.

Definition of dynamic driving task:
Dynamic driving task includes the operational (steering, braking, accelerating, monitoring the vehicle and roadway) and tactical (responding to events, determining when to change lanes, turn, use signals, etc.) aspects of the driving task, but not the strategic (determining destinations and waypoints) aspect of the driving task.
http://www.sae.org/misc/pdfs/automated_driving.pdf

A system that can't change lanes on its own would not be a Level 3 system because it does not perform all aspects of the dynamic driving task.

Note, in all levels, the strategic aspects (setting the destination and route to take) is determined by the human, but I imagine in the future with even smarter AI will be able to make such decisions by you providing a schedule or just an activity you need to perform (for example needing to go to lunch, and the computer decides where to go to and what route to take).

 

[KZKZ]

In what way is Tesla really different? I really don't understand your comments. Have you seen this video from Hyundai?

According to the Hyundai press release, the vehicles were modified to show what the technology would do, not what the production cars are allowed to do.

 

[roblab]

I got Model X 90D in March. About two weeks later, I drove the X to Vegas with my wife and two little girls. After we got on the freeway, I started to use autopilot....

Hey, @micquing...

Having driven AP for lotsa miles on my S, and seeing only discussion on other things so far, I wanted to say that it looks like, to me, that you initiated AP, well, differently than I do. I think that you confused the car. In essence, you said, "drive over that car".

If I understand it, you pulled on the freeway, hit AP on, and then raised the speed to 80. There was a car in front of you. AP is really Assist, not Auto, so you basically told the car it was clear in front. The car told you, no, there's a car in front. You have to turn off AP, wait 'til it's clear, accelerate to your speed, and start AP. Then AP will start watching cars and maintaining speed.

If I'm wrong, well, that's how it is. But I think you shouldn't give up. Figure out how to use it, and enjoy.

 

[KZKZ]

No, Level 4 is a system where the driver never needs to take control (as in a vehicle that does not even need controls at all other than inputting a destination). A level 3 vehicle would still be able to make turns and change lanes, but will not be able to handle all road conditions (such that it has to notify the driver to take over).

The SAE definition makes this more clear:

The Feds set the standards and have chosen a 1 to 4 level system. SAE uses their own definition but the fatality investigation is being performed by the Feds, not SAE.

Regardless, Telsa's implementation doesn't really fit any definition, and that's a problem. Tesla wants regulators to think its just a standard Level 2 ACC + Lane Keeping Assist, but then we see how it is used and marketed.

If AP is just a standard run-of-mill Level 2 ACC + LKA like everyone else has, then why does Tesla feel the need to release AP as a Beta system? Its just ACC + LKA, right? wink wink

 

[stopcrazypp]

The Feds set the standards and have chosen a 1 to 4 level system. SAE uses their own definition but the fatality investigation is being performed by the Feds, not SAE.

Regardless, Telsa's implementation doesn't really fit any definition, and that's a problem. Tesla wants regulators to think its just a standard Level 2 ACC + Lane Keeping Assist, but then we see how it is used and marketed.

If AP is just a standard run-of-mill Level 2 ACC + LKA like everyone else has, then why does Tesla feel the need to release AP as a Beta system? Its just ACC + LKA, right? wink wink

How is Tesla's system not fitting a level 2 definition? Keep in mind a Level 2 system (regardless if you take the NHTSA definition or the SAE) does not require the human to keep their hands on the steering wheel, if that is the issue you are talking about. It only requires you to stay alert, and at every opportunity Tesla emphasizes this.

NHTSA extended definition on page 8:
http://www.nhtsa.gov/DOT/NHTSA/NVS/Crash Avoidance/Technical Publications/2014/812044_HF-Evaluation-Levels-2-3-Automated-Driving-Concepts-f-Operation.pdf
Level 2 (L2; Combined Function Automation): This level involves automation of at least two primary control functions designed to work in unison to relieve the driver of control of those functions. Vehicles at this level of automation can utilize shared authority when the driver cedes active primary control in certain limited driving situations. The driver is still responsible for monitoring the roadway and safe operation and is expected to be available for control at all times and on short notice. The system can relinquish control with no advance warning and the driver must be ready to control the vehicle safely. An example of combined functions enabling an L2 system is adaptive cruise control in combination with lane centering. The major distinction between L1 and L2 is that, at L2 in the specific operating conditions for which the system is designed, an automated operating mode is enabled such that the driver is disengaged from physically operating the vehicle by having his or her hands off the steering wheel AND foot off pedal at the same time.

As for the advertising, people already pointed out that other automakers are doing no different in pumping the "self driving" aspect of level 2 systems, but you seem to have ignored that.

 

[trils0n]

Regardless, Telsa's implementation doesn't really fit any definition, and that's a problem.

As I said before, Tesla's Autopilot is clearly a level 2 system. No ifs, ands or buts. The part in question is ACC + Lane Keeping. @stopcrazypp just posted a good description straight from NHSTA.

Level 2 requires to the operator to be ready to take control at any time and on short notice. This is exactly how Tesla's system works, both in documentation and practice.

Level 3 lets the operator hand over all driving functions to the vehicle and the vehicle must give the operator advanced warning on when to take over. Tesla's system does not do this, either in practice or documentation.

Just because Tesla's system is better than other Level 2 systems, doesn't make it level 3. (But you know all this already, and yet you still keep posting stuff like this)

 

[walla2]

Here's the thing. Tesla never said to not pay attention. Never. Even if you take your hands off, you still to pay attention. Pay attention. It's so simple. Autopilot 1.0 and 2.0 and so on will require you to pay attention. Because of liability, unless there is a state or federal law or both exempting car manufacturers from liability, you will have to pay attention even in a level 5 fully autonomous vehicle. Enjoy autopilot and pay attention.