Model X Battery Loss

[bayx]

Does anyone know the battery loss per year on the MX, I mean there seems to be a certain percentage of loss with age (5%, 10%, etc)? If there is a significant loss over time then it might actually be good so you can get it replaced while still within warranty!

 

[MP3Mike]

You can only get it replaced under warranty if the battery fails, or if there is a significant non-gradual capacity loss. The warranty doesn't cover any level of gradual capacity loss for the Model S&X. (It does on the Model 3, when you get down to 70%.)

 

[bayx]

You can only get it replaced under warranty if the battery fails, or if there is a significant non-gradual capacity loss. The warranty doesn't cover any level of gradual capacity loss for the Model S&X. (It does on the Model 3, when you get down to 70%.)

And no one probably knows what Tesla will charge for battery replacement on the X when the time comes for it to be done!

 

[Electric700]

A lot of people are seeing minimal degradation even after 5 years or more, some at 5% or lower. Tesla models have liquid cooling / heating for the batteries and they have designed them really well, to help keep them in their optimal state and range loss to a minimum.

 

[Yinn]

Does anyone know the battery loss per year on the MX, I mean there seems to be a certain percentage of loss with age (5%, 10%, etc)? If there is a significant loss over time then it might actually be good so you can get it replaced while still within warranty!

I've been seeing 4% a year, when I was concerned I was told by the SC that it's "within expected range"

A lot of people are seeing minimal degradation even after 5 years or more, some at 5% or lower. Tesla models have liquid cooling / heating for the batteries and they have designed them really well, to help keep them in their optimal state and range loss to a minimum.

The big factor isn't time. It's charge cycles, which you can loosely relate to miles. If you think about a fuel pump in an ICE car; it's similiar. It's loosely tied to mileage because X gallons of fuel is pumped to travel Y miles. The same for the battery, X energy is used to travel Y miles. With that said, you can overheat a fuel pump just like you would a battery, which would reduce life.

And no one probably knows what Tesla will charge for battery replacement on the X when the time comes for it to be done!

It'll depend on the pack size. Larger pack = more cells to replace. There's enough info out there to get a general idea.

- A used Tesla pack from a 75D is going for about $15-$20k.
- A non-Tesla pack upgrade from a 75D to a 100D is about $30k.
- A Tesla pack upgrade from a 90D to a 100D is about $10k (announced when 100D was released)
- An increase of an additional $10k from a 90 to a 100 pre-delivery to post-delivery due to recycling cost for a total cost of $20k.

So if your battery goes kaput, you can estimate $10k in recycling costs plus the cost of the pack; which based on used values is roughly $15-20k more.

 

[bayx]

It'll depend on the pack size. Larger pack = more cells to replace. There's enough info out there to get a general idea.

- A used Tesla pack from a 75D is going for about $15-$20k.
- A non-Tesla pack upgrade from a 75D to a 100D is about $30k.
- A Tesla pack upgrade from a 90D to a 100D is about $10k (announced when 100D was released)
- An increase of an additional $10k from a 90 to a 100 pre-delivery to post-delivery due to recycling cost for a total cost of $20k.

So if your battery goes kaput, you can estimate $10k in recycling costs plus the cost of the pack; which based on used values is roughly $15-20k more.

Perhaps the battery prices will go down with better battery tech, gigafactory becomes fully operational, and competitors flooding the market with EVs that can challenge Tesla.

I wonder if insurance would cover battery replacement (am thinking unlikely, but did't ask them)?

 

[Yinn]

Perhaps the battery prices will go down with better battery tech, gigafactory becomes fully operational, and competitors flooding the market with EVs that can challenge Tesla.

I wonder if insurance would cover battery replacement (am thinking unlikely, but did't ask them)?

With time it should. But then we get into comparability. I thinking Tesla is keeping the form factor so even if battery tech evolves we should be able to plug and play.

It would be considered a maintenance item and wouldn’t be covered. They would cover the replacement of an engine or fuel tank as an example. It would have to be caused by an accident of some sort

 

[rjcbox]

Reading hundreds of posts on the same topic over the years, the consensus seems to be these mostly aren't real losses. The car calculates range based on measuring State-Of-Charge and translates this into miles of range left. When cars are routinely cycled as daily-drivers, range-used may only fluctuate 10 or 20% (ex you charge to 90% when you leave each morning and plug back in at night w/ 70% SOC. For some reason this causes the computer to slightly miscalculate the true battery's potential. Some have suggested that a couple deep discharges, followed by full charges will "rebalance" the pack. N=1 here, but when all was said and done (and balanced), my Model S 70D probably really only lost 4-5 miles of range, or <2%, over 3 years and 36,000 miles. This extremely low range loss over time & mileage is consistent with what many others have reported

Here's my 3yr/36,000 miles report:
3 Year/36,000 report, my experience w/ Tesla

 

[Yinn]

Reading hundreds of posts on the same topic over the years, the consensus seems to be these mostly aren't real losses. The car calculates range based on measuring State-Of-Charge and translates this into miles of range left. When cars are routinely cycled as daily-drivers, range-used may only fluctuate 10 or 20% (ex you charge to 90% when you leave each morning and plug back in at night w/ 70% SOC. For some reason this causes the computer to slightly miscalculate the true battery's potential. Some have suggested that a couple deep discharges, followed by full charges will "rebalance" the pack. N=1 here, but when all was said and done (and balanced), my Model S 70D probably really only lost 4-5 miles of range, or <2%, over 3 years and 36,000 miles. This extremely low range loss over time & mileage is consistent with what many others have reported

Here's my 3yr/36,000 miles report:
3 Year/36,000 report, my experience w/ Tesla

I actually requested Tesla to run diagnostics on my pack as it never fluctuated much from the declined state, even after attempting deep discharges. The range was typically about 5 miles difference but both high and low ends were lower than rated. This also differed from my experience with two other cars as they’ve been consistent and experienced virtually no degradation. So it didn’t make sense to me that my newest car, and one with least miles to have the most degradation.

They were able to confirm my range loss with the diagnostics but stated it was within normal expected range. Point is, same conditions, driving habits, charging habits. Sometimes it luck of the draw. Chalk it up to manufacturing tolerances.

 

[bayx]

It would be interesting to see data, if available, on whether there is an increased battery life depreciation on those that were only ever charged at supercharging stations.

 

[bayx]

I actually requested Tesla to run diagnostics on my pack as it never fluctuated much from the declined state, even after attempting deep discharges. The range was typically about 5 miles difference but both high and low ends were lower than rated. This also differed from my experience with two other cars as they’ve been consistent and experienced virtually no degradation. So it didn’t make sense to me that my newest car, and one with least miles to have the most degradation.

They were able to confirm my range loss with the diagnostics but stated it was within normal expected range. Point is, same conditions, driving habits, charging habits. Sometimes it luck of the draw. Chalk it up to manufacturing tolerances.

Luck of the draw even for batteries, like build issues, huh!

 

[Yinn]

Luck of the draw even for batteries, like build issues, huh!

What build issues? Those aren’t panel gaps; they’re air vents to dissipate heat....

 

[xyeahtony]

Does anyone know the battery loss per year on the MX, I mean there seems to be a certain percentage of loss with age (5%, 10%, etc)? If there is a significant loss over time then it might actually be good so you can get it replaced while still within warranty!

reposting again for reference.

Tesla batteries will live longer than expected, survey finds

It would be interesting to see data, if available, on whether there is an increased battery life depreciation on those that were only ever charged at supercharging stations.

some people have reported less loss with exclusive supercharging.

Tesla battery data shows path to over 500,000 miles on a single pack

frequent Supercharging (twice a week to daily) appears to actually be beneficial in preventing battery degradation.

 

[rjcbox]

"It would be interesting to see data, if available, on whether there is an increased battery life depreciation on those that were only ever charged at supercharging stations."

Just N=1 here, but my <2%/36k miles above was using ~15% supercharging and often charging to 100% before leaving home. Would not advise this if it can be avoided due to stress on battery, but many charges were started from deep discharges to just a few miles range

 

[jboy210]

It'll depend on the pack size. Larger pack = more cells to replace. There's enough info out there to get a general idea.

- A used Tesla pack from a 75D is going for about $15-$20k.
- A non-Tesla pack upgrade from a 75D to a 100D is about $30k.
- A Tesla pack upgrade from a 90D to a 100D is about $10k (announced when 100D was released)
- An increase of an additional $10k from a 90 to a 100 pre-delivery to post-delivery due to recycling cost for a total cost of $20k.

So if your battery goes kaput, you can estimate $10k in recycling costs plus the cost of the pack; which based on used values is roughly $15-20k more.

Why is there any recycling cost? Isn't a function of the Gigafactory to recycle batteries because it is cheaper than creating new ones? And aren't old car battery modules capable of being used in Powerwalls?

 

[MP3Mike]

And aren't old car battery modules capable of being used in Powerwalls?

No, they use a different cell formulation in Powerwalls/Powerpacks as well as different module configurations. I'm not saying that they couldn't be used for energy storage but it wouldn't be in Powerwalls/Powerpacks.

 

[David99]

I have 172k miles = 276k km in 4.5 years of my Model S and lost about 10% of range. Now 172k miles is the equivalent of an average car being driven for 11 years. On average it would take 11 years to get so many miles on your car. Seems reasonable to me.

I would stay away from the 90 battery packs. Lots of people report faster degradation on those.

 

[bayx]

I have 172k miles = 276k km in 4.5 years of my Model S and lost about 10% of range. Now 172k miles is the equivalent of an average car being driven for 11 years. On average it would take 11 years to get so many miles on your car. Seems reasonable to me.

I would stay away from the 90 battery packs. Lots of people report faster degradation on those.

90 battery packs degrade faster?! I wonder what about 75 then, maybe even worse?

 

[Yinn]

Why is there any recycling cost? Isn't a function of the Gigafactory to recycle batteries because it is cheaper than creating new ones? And aren't old car battery modules capable of being used in Powerwalls?

Feel free to tweet Elon to ask. I’m basing it on this article
Tesla to begin Model S, X P90DL to P100D performance upgrade on eligible cars

If I had to guess though, sure they save on material costs. But the cost to ship you a battery, labor to have it installed, remove the old battery, ship it back, disassemble it, inspect it, and then put it back into material reuse, makes up that cost.

 

[bayx]

• "Model S and X receive 400 kWh (~1,000 miles) of Supercharger credits annually.
  • For usage above the complimentary annual credits provided, a small fee applies."

So, even if you have free supercharging, it's only for 1000 miles/year? I didn't know this until now, though it would not have impacted my decision. My OA never mentioned this, especially even after the OA knew I do not have Apt-charging!