Model X Crash on US-101 (Mountain View, CA)

[Tam]

...wouldn't the car have slowed down even approaching the barrier as it would think it was a stopped car in front of you?

I thought by now we should know that Tesla Collision Avoidance system works sometimes and doesn't at other times.

Otherwise it wouldn't be called Autopilot, would it? Because in aviation, the automation can still slam right into a big, high, gigantic mountain!

 

[verygreen]

Where is the data recorder stored and does @verygreen or @lunitiks or anyone else who knows where this stuff is, think it will be recoverable?

I explained my position in this post: Model X Crash on US-101 (Mountain View, CA)

the EDR would not contain too much interesting data, just control inputs and the like. The real money would be in the autopilot camera footage, but there's zero chance any of it was written to storage so even if storage is intact, it does not matter.

 

[TEG]

...Have used TACC a few times on the highway. If TACC was on, and assume you mean the lane following or car spacing feature was active, wouldn't the car have slowed down even approaching the barrier as it would think it was a stopped car in front of you?

If you look at that last picture I posted, you can see that the truck in front would block the view of the barrier from the autopilot cameras (the ones in the rear view mirror housing.) Something like that might have happened that morning.
Also, again, the sun was in front possibly making in harder for the driver and cameras to see the barrier/wall which would be in a shadow.
Also, the warning label for the barrier was damaged, and the cones someone left were only on the far left side of it.

 

[brkaus]

Wondering how a hydrogen fuel car would have handled the collision.

 

[SMAlset]

I thought by now we should know that Tesla Collision Avoidance system works sometimes and doesn't at other times.

Otherwise it wouldn't be called Autopilot, would it? Because in aviation, the automation can still slam right into a big, high, gigantic mountain!

I'm not sure we are talking about the same thing. I was talking about Traffic Aware Cruise Control which I could see him having on and set to maintain distance between cars. We use TACC often on the highway but not all the other features.

 

[TEG]

Also, reminder that it looks like the streetview car was driving down the "gore area" in this view:

I don't think cars are ever supposed to be there.

If you continue straight down ahead in that direction you could end up in the situation we saw with the X that crashed. The black cuts in the cement on either side make it look like you are in a lane.

Somebody put a lot of faith in those white lines to direct people away from death.

 

[Icer]

The real money would be in the autopilot camera footage, but there's zero chance any of it was written to storage so even if storage is intact, it does not matter.

Would Tesla know if AP was engaged?

It is curious that nobody seems to have asked this.

Thx.

 

[TEG]

Don’t those two lines you have noted come to a point together further back? If so, drivers paying attention should know this is not a lane. Painting chevrons or diagonal lines through those two lines would have been very helpful.

It can be really hard to see in that area in the morning. This is from a dashcam video shortly before the crash happened:

When you come out from under the bridge just before the lane splits off, your eyes and the video camera iris are suddenly blinded by the morning sun ahead. It takes a while to adjust again.

 

[mkspeedr]

Also, reminder that it looks like the streetview car was driving down the "gore area" in this view:

I don't think cars are ever supposed to be there.

Somebody put a lot of faith in those white lines to direct people away from death.

For sure too much faith. I see cars swerve at the last minute from the 85 exit back to 101 too many times to count.

My guess - he had the autopilot engaged. Possibly not paying attention and not noticing he was in the wrong lane or how close he was to the barrier - when he realized he was in the 85 exit lane he swerved too late and hit the barrier almost head on.

 

[TEG]

Also, here is another snap from the "just before" dashcam view:

That is where the Y starts and the lane splits. I think you can see that the right marking is really hard to see. I could easily see someone start tracking to the car on the left trying to stay next to them, not realizing that they are entering a "gore area" instead of staying in their lane.

I think part of the problem here is that it is really hard to get anyone to "fix" something like this. I don't think Caltrans can redo the lane positioning and major marking features. I think this starts to become the responsibility of the engineers that designed the roadway there, not Caltrans who is trying to maintain what was put there.

Also, from what I understand from researching other weird highway markings, the people painting the lines and putting in the signs don't get to make decisions based on "common sense". Everyone is probably trying to put things together according to some rulebooks and the standard rules aren't always the best choice for every situation.

 

[verygreen]

Would Tesla know if AP was engaged?

It is curious that nobody seems to have asked this.

Thx.

Yes, they'll know if AP was engaged, but not too much visibility into its state, I bet.

 

[mongo]

The rationale for disabling the 12V is :

"Its 12 volt battery operates the SRS, airbags, windows, door locks, touchscreen, and interior and exterior lights. The DC-DC converter in the high voltage system charges the 12 volt battery, and the 12 volt battery supplies power to the high voltage contactors, allowing high voltage current to flow into and out of the high voltage battery."

If the 12V battery itself is gone in this collision, there's no low voltage current to power those above components even if I reconnect the First Responder Loop or if I short the 12V wires.

Now that the 12V is gone, there's power to power the DC-DC converter and there would be no 12V coming from that converter either.

Also, for the high voltage, as Electrek pictured for a Model 3: There are multiple redundancies to make sure it got cut off in a collision:

1) Negative Power Switch (I think that's a contactor)
2) Pyro Disconnect
3) Positive Power Switch (I think that's another contactor)

Yah I agree on the HV disconnection. My comment regarding 12V was directed at

3) Supplemental Restraint System is powered by 12V battery so when you double cut the first responder loop, that would prevent those intact air bags from accidentally exploding while you are working at the scene.

And the general case of whether cutting the emergency loop removes all 12V power. I believe it will disable the SRS system specifically, but leaves other 12V systems operational, but I could be mistaken.

 

[LMNOP]

The driver was personally known to me. This is a terrible, terrible tragedy and is awful for his family. He leaves behind a wife and two young kids who I'm sure are all in a lot of pain right now.

I am not a Tesla owner, but I found this thread while doing my own research into what could have gone wrong. I've read this entire thread and a lot of people are focusing on the barrier and/or the fire following the crash. Since I learned yesterday that it was Walter involved in the crash, I've been obsessing over the circumstances that could have caused his car to drive straight into the barrier. I'm sure a better barrier could have lessened the damage, but I'm interested in the idea that Autopilot could have contributed to the crash. Knowing Walter, he was not an aggressive or risky driver, and I doubt that this could have happened if he was in full control.

I don't have any more information about the crash than anyone else here. It's been mentioned here before that the driver was an Apple employee. That is correct. I can also confirm that he worked out of Apple's Sunnyvale office, and he was on his way to work at the time of the crash. He should have been continuing straight on 101-S at this junction, so there is no reason he should have been as far left to impact the barrier.

I had a thought/hypothesis yesterday that I would like some opinions on. Not being a Tesla owner personally, I'm not too familiar with exactly how AP works, so you please tell me if this is feasible:

Could it be possible that if AP was engaged, the car was following another vehicle left of the gore point to the 85 ramp? Perhaps the driver realized late that he was in the wrong lane, and signaled the car to change lanes to the right to stay on 101. But, due to the white line markings in the gore point, could the car have moved right into the gore point thinking that it was in a lane? This is total speculation on my part. I'm looking for opinions from those of you who are familiar with the AP technology on the likeliness of this scenario.

 

[SMAlset]

There's a direct to module connector for EDR that is somewhere under the passenger seat and under console. From Crash Data Group who sells the Tesla connecting cables:

• Direct-to-module retrieval: In the Model X and the Model 3, the vehicle’s RCM is located on the floor of the passenger compartment, under the center console and between the seats. In the Model S, the vehicle’s RCM is located on the floor of the passenger compartment, under the center screen.

My husband is usually driving our MS when we travel most of the time. Have used TACC a few times on the highway. If TACC was on, and assume you mean the lane following or car spacing feature was active, wouldn't the car have slowed down even approaching the barrier as it would think it was a stopped car in front of you?

@RedOctober I saw you disagreed with my post. Don't see a followup saying why however. If you did so because of the first part about the EDR then I'm confused. The CrashDataGroup is clear on where the Model X's RCM is located, and Telsa's .pdf Guide lists that method as a second means to collect the data on it. Telsa hasn't updated the illustrated Guide section to include the X and Model 3 yet but here's what it says in the S guide located under Data Retrieval:

2. Direct-to-module connection, which requires that you physically remove the RCM from the vehicle, then connect to it and retrieve the data.

I had questioned a while back whether the RCM could still be retrieved from the car since that portion of seating was still present and wondered if the fire would have reached it since it was underneath and not near the battery pack section that caught on fire.

If you were disagreeing with the comment on the TACC, I don't understand I guess. We've had our TACC perform very well in detecting a car in front of us or one stopped at a light and it slowed our car down each time.

 

[TEG]

Thank you for posting here.

The driver was personally known to me. This is a terrible, terrible tragedy and is awful for his family. He leaves behind a wife and two young kids who I'm sure are all in a lot of pain right now.

I am not a Tesla owner, but I found this thread while doing my own research into what could have gone wrong. I've read this entire thread and a lot of people are focusing on the barrier and/or the fire following the crash. Since I learned yesterday that it was Walter involved in the crash, I've been obsessing over the circumstances that could have caused his car to drive straight into the barrier. I'm sure a better barrier could have lessened the damage, but I'm interested in the idea that Autopilot could have contributed to the crash. Knowing Walter, he was not an aggressive or risky driver, and I doubt that this could have happened if he was in full control.

I don't have any more information about the crash than anyone else here. It's been mentioned here before that the driver was an Apple employee. That is correct. I can also confirm that he worked out of Apple's Sunnyvale office, and he was on his way to work at the time of the crash. He should have been continuing straight on 101-S at this junction, so there is no reason he should have been as far left to impact the barrier.

I had a thought/hypothesis yesterday that I would like some opinions on. Not being a Tesla owner personally, I'm not too familiar with exactly how AP works, so you please tell me if this is feasible:

Could it be possible that if AP was engaged, the car was following another vehicle left of the gore point to the 85 ramp? Perhaps the driver realized late that he was in the wrong lane, and signaled the car to change lanes to the right to stay on 101. But, due to the white line markings in the gore point, could the car have moved right into the gore point thinking that it was in a lane? This is total speculation on my part. I'm looking for opinions from those of you who are familiar with the AP technology on the likeliness of this scenario.

Thank you for posting here. Knowing that he worked in the Sunnyvale offices and likely would be normally staying on 101 is helpful to know.
Our condolences to all going through pain from what happened. I appreciate that you were willing to talk about this with us.

Yes, some of us have wondered what would have happened if he found himself on the 85 offramp and tried to use the automatic lane change feature.

I mentioned that in post #90 here: Model X Crash on US-101 (Mountain View, CA)

 

[buttershrimp]

I just read the 20+ pages of this thread, but I am still puzzle on how this accident occurred?
- Does the Tesla driver tried to change direction (left or right) at the last moment?
- Does another car was involved?

I have quite often been cut off by drivers changing lane at high speed on the freeway.

- In the situation below, I got cut off by this reckless Jaguar driver, on the Hwy 80 in Emeryville, CA,
while I was driving already at the speed limit.
- I never had a car passing so close to my front bumper.

- I could had also created an accident to avoid this crazy driver, as a stepped on my brake.
- If there was a car behind me, I would have been back ended.

View attachment 289732
View attachment 289731
View attachment 289734

That’s a great view showing how someone could manually steer into the wrong lane

 

[e-FTW]

The driver was personally known to me. This is a terrible, terrible tragedy and is awful for his family. He leaves behind a wife and two young kids who I'm sure are all in a lot of pain right now.

I am not a Tesla owner, but I found this thread while doing my own research into what could have gone wrong. I've read this entire thread and a lot of people are focusing on the barrier and/or the fire following the crash. Since I learned yesterday that it was Walter involved in the crash, I've been obsessing over the circumstances that could have caused his car to drive straight into the barrier. I'm sure a better barrier could have lessened the damage, but I'm interested in the idea that Autopilot could have contributed to the crash. Knowing Walter, he was not an aggressive or risky driver, and I doubt that this could have happened if he was in full control.

I don't have any more information about the crash than anyone else here. It's been mentioned here before that the driver was an Apple employee. That is correct. I can also confirm that he worked out of Apple's Sunnyvale office, and he was on his way to work at the time of the crash. He should have been continuing straight on 101-S at this junction, so there is no reason he should have been as far left to impact the barrier.

I had a thought/hypothesis yesterday that I would like some opinions on. Not being a Tesla owner personally, I'm not too familiar with exactly how AP works, so you please tell me if this is feasible:

Could it be possible that if AP was engaged, the car was following another vehicle left of the gore point to the 85 ramp? Perhaps the driver realized late that he was in the wrong lane, and signaled the car to change lanes to the right to stay on 101. But, due to the white line markings in the gore point, could the car have moved right into the gore point thinking that it was in a lane? This is total speculation on my part. I'm looking for opinions from those of you who are familiar with the AP technology on the likeliness of this scenario.

Hey happy to have you here. Am sorry for your loss. I did not work with him, but I am a colleague.

At this point, we cannot rule anything out. AP might have had a role, just as much as driver error can have had a role. Other cars may have been involved in the events leading up to the crash. Same for the design of the road, signage and barrier design.
I'm probably forgetting other factors.

With these things, it usually is a combination of things that lead to a bad outcome.

 

[favo]

I think part of the problem here is that it is really hard to get anyone to "fix" something like this. I don't think Caltrans can redo the lane positioning and major marking features. I think this starts to become the responsibility of the engineers that designed the roadway there, not Caltrans who is trying to maintain what was put there.

An obvious, relatively cheap way to prevent (most) people from swerving across the gore area is to put up those plastic candlestick posts (delineators/bollards). They can start on the solid white line before the Y split and go all the way to the crash attenuator. They should also repaint those worn lines and probably add chevrons. I would also either add Botts dots at the perimeter of the gore area or maybe rumble strips. That way even if you aren't looking, you get feedback. None of this is very costly or complicated.

All of that is described in this Federal Highway Administration document.

Delineation in the vicinity of the exit gore at non-illuminated and partially illuminated interchanges should include, as a minimum, raised pavement markers and retroreflective post-mounted delineators as shown in Figure 46.

 

[buttershrimp]

Also, reminder that it looks like the streetview car was driving down the "gore area" in this view:

I don't think cars are ever supposed to be there.

If you continue straight down ahead in that direction you could end up in the situation we saw with the X that crashed. The black cuts in the cement on either side make it look like you are in a lane.

Somebody put a lot of faith in those white lines to direct people away from death.

It’s unbelivable that horizontal white lines are painted there

 

[brkaus]

@LMNOP I’ve never found the auto-lane change to be willing to cross a solid white line.